Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Dear Jon (et al)
Rules question, with a lot of sub questions:

Imagine I have a neatly formed batle line of infantry, with at least one
gigantic unit, let's say a 12 element unit of Reg. C MI LTS, Sh formed 6
wide and 2 deep. This unit, on approaches, wheels slightly, so that it
is now at an angle to the rest of the line. During charges, it declares
a legal charge on an enemy unit that it can legally contact in the flank
(!) with one element pair; that is to say, the end element(s). The unit
charges straight ahead, its end elements just catching the flank of an
enemy. Now, according to the rules, the contacting element can conform
to the flank of the enemy body, and the rest of the elements whip
around, the second pair of elements keeping 20 paces back from the
combat to represent their inability to make contact with an 80 pace move
and so on down the line. After combat, the whole unit is formed along
the line of the initial comat of the first, conforming elements.

Needless to say, the elements at the other end of the line move
something like 280 paces.

Question 1 - if there are further enemy units in the new charge path;
that is to say, the vast arc of the field covered by the 6E wide body
whipping around, what is their status? If they are Lights or
skirmishers, do they have to evade? If they are not Lights or
skirmishers, are they contacted? If the 20 Pace rule applies to the rest
of the units, how does the 12E body conform? How does it conform after
the combat is fought? Does this become a "fit" issue where, if the whole
12E body cannot complete the massive wheel caused by "conforming" or
"Lining up" the whole charge becomes illegal? If the last is true, was
the charge declaration illegal in the first place?

Question 2 - Same as above, except that now the 12E body makes the flank
contact on a converted charge. Does this change the answers?

Question 3 - Same as above, except the 12E body's initial charge is at a
body that evades, uncovering the flank of a new enemy that leads to the
"whip around" effect. Can the whip around cause the 12E body to gain
enough distance to catch the evader? If not, where do the elements that
aren't allowed to catch the evader halt? Can the uncontacted evader make
the charge illegal because of fit (if that was the answer back in
question 1?)

Different question altogether - in the orders section, when the bullets
on the order state that "Other troops cannot declare charges unless
prompted" (Hold) or "Other troops cannot declare charges unprompted"
(Delay) or "Missile troops cannot declare any charges unless prompted"
(Attack) does this mean that bodies in these order situations must be
prompted to charge if a prompt is required, but still do not need to be
prompted in accordance with the bullets in 6.163; or does it mean what
it says; that is, that despite the provisions of 6.163, these units,
even if facing a flank, a disordered charge target, etc, etc, must be
prompted to charge?



WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>There are 4 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Beginners Queries
> From: "raphaelschild" <raphaelschild@...>
> 2. Re: Digest Number 1593
> From: pcollins@...
> 3. Kom Byz, was Digest Number 1593
> From: JonCleaves@...
> 4. Looking for missing NASAMW members
> From: "Philip H. Gardocki" <PHGamer@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:52:53 -0000
> From: "raphaelschild" <raphaelschild@...>
>Subject: Beginners Queries
>
>
>Hello,
>I am new to the group and have a couple of questions - apologies if
>they seem simple!
>
>1) Rule 6.161 gives the conditions under which Light Troops may
>charge. Does this also mean that they cannot respond with a
>countercharge as this must abide by all the same rules as a charge?
>
>2) If an Elephant with light infantry attached to the base reaches a
>minor water feature (in rout) that is crossable only by swimming
>cavalry or fording elephants what does it do?
>
>Thanks for any help, Raphael
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:34:19 +1100
> From: pcollins@...
>Subject: Re: Digest Number 1593
>
>Hi Todd,
>
>If interested, here is the list I used at CANCON. This is typed from
>memory at work so please forgive formatting and brief notation of troop
>types. The units are less than impressive individually however overall the
>army is large enough to do OK. The HK/MC units performed really well.
>
>Komnenan Byzantine. (Late). 1650points
>
>CinC RA 1E EHK/1E HK,L,SH +PA
>Frank SUB IB 2E HK,L,SH +P
>4 x 1E IB HK/1E IC MC,L,SH
>1 x Franks IB 2E HK,L,SH
>3x Light Cav 4E RC LC, B
>2 xSlingers 2E RC LI,S,SH
>1 x Slingers 4E RD LI,S,SH
>2 x Spearmen 8E 7xID/1xIC MI,LTS,SH
>1 x Light Cav 4E IC LC, B. Half JLS
>1 x Slavs 8E IC MI,LTS,SH
>1 x Varangians IB LHI 2E x 2HCW,JLS,SH 2E JLS,SH
>2 x Peltastoi. RD 6E LMI,JLS,B,SH
>
>20 units, 56 scouting points
>
>Paul Collins.
>
>
>
>
>Freedom Clearance on now!
>http://203.110.153.5/RocketSeed/mail/433a363a3231383837383a313836353a2d323a3233\n30
>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:48:20 -0500
> From: JonCleaves@...
>Subject: Kom Byz, was Digest Number 1593
>
>Steve H, you should look at this list Paul put on here. I personally would not
have taken all the spear and I would have done the knights differently, but a
lot of food for thought.
>
><<Komnenan Byzantine. (Late). 1650points
>
>CinC RA 1E EHK/1E HK,L,SH +PA
>Frank SUB IB 2E HK,L,SH +P
>4 x 1E IB HK/1E IC MC,L,SH
>1 x Franks IB 2E HK,L,SH
>3x Light Cav 4E RC LC, B
>2 xSlingers 2E RC LI,S,SH
>1 x Slingers 4E RD LI,S,SH
>2 x Spearmen 8E 7xID/1xIC MI,LTS,SH
>1 x Light Cav 4E IC LC, B. Half JLS
>1 x Slavs 8E IC MI,LTS,SH
>1 x Varangians IB LHI 2E x 2HCW,JLS,SH 2E JLS,SH
>2 x Peltastoi. RD 6E LMI,JLS,B,SH>>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:32:06 -0500
> From: "Philip H. Gardocki" <PHGamer@...>
>Subject: Looking for missing NASAMW members
>
>I am looking for email addresses of the following NASAMW personnel.
>If they are on this list, could you send me an email?
>
>Stephen DeLucas> Nate Morris
>Thomas Barkus
> Ed Neeper
>
>Thanks
>Phil Gardocki
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
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[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 29/01/2005 03:38:01 GMT Standard Time,
cgc.sjw@... writes:


Dear Jon (et al)
Rules question, with a lot of sub questions:

Imagine I have a neatly formed batle line of infantry, with at least one
gigantic unit, let's say a 12 element unit of Reg. C MI LTS, Sh formed 6
wide and 2 deep. This unit, on approaches, wheels slightly, so that it
is now at an angle to the rest of the line. During charges, it declares
a legal charge on an enemy unit that it can legally contact in the flank
(!) with one element pair; that is to say, the end element(s). The unit
charges straight ahead, its end elements just catching the flank of an
enemy. Now, according to the rules, the contacting element can conform
to the flank of the enemy body, and the rest of the elements whip
around, the second pair of elements keeping 20 paces back from the
combat to represent their inability to make contact with an 80 pace move
and so on down the line. After combat, the whole unit is formed along
the line of the initial comat of the first, conforming elements.

Needless to say, the elements at the other end of the line move
something like 280 paces.

Question 1 - if there are further enemy units in the new charge path;
that is to say, the vast arc of the field covered by the 6E wide body
whipping around, what is their status? If they are Lights or
skirmishers, do they have to evade? If they are not Lights or
skirmishers, are they contacted? If the 20 Pace rule applies to the rest
of the units, how does the 12E body conform? How does it conform after
the combat is fought? Does this become a "fit" issue where, if the whole
12E body cannot complete the massive wheel caused by "conforming" or
"Lining up" the whole charge becomes illegal? If the last is true, was
the charge declaration illegal in the first place?

Question 2 - Same as above, except that now the 12E body makes the flank
contact on a converted charge. Does this change the answers?

Question 3 - Same as above, except the 12E body's initial charge is at a
body that evades, uncovering the flank of a new enemy that leads to the
"whip around" effect. Can the whip around cause the 12E body to gain
enough distance to catch the evader? If not, where do the elements that
aren't allowed to catch the evader halt? Can the uncontacted evader make
the charge illegal because of fit (if that was the answer back in
question 1?)

Different question altogether - in the orders section, when the bullets
on the order state that "Other troops cannot declare charges unless
prompted" (Hold) or "Other troops cannot declare charges unprompted"
(Delay) or "Missile troops cannot declare any charges unless prompted"
(Attack) does this mean that bodies in these order situations must be
prompted to charge if a prompt is required, but still do not need to be
prompted in accordance with the bullets in 6.163; or does it mean what
it says; that is, that despite the provisions of 6.163, these units,
even if facing a flank, a disordered charge target, etc, etc, must be
prompted to charge?






**I think this needs a diagram.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

<<Imagine I have a neatly formed batle line of infantry, with at least one
gigantic unit, let's say a 12 element unit of Reg. C MI LTS, Sh formed 6
wide and 2 deep. This unit, on approaches, wheels slightly, so that it
is now at an angle to the rest of the line. During charges, it declares
a legal charge on an enemy unit that it can legally contact in the flank
(!) with one element pair; that is to say, the end element(s). The unit
charges straight ahead, its end elements just catching the flank of an
enemy. Now, according to the rules, the contacting element can conform
to the flank of the enemy body, and the rest of the elements whip
around, the second pair of elements keeping 20 paces back from the
combat to represent their inability to make contact with an 80 pace move
and so on down the line. After combat, the whole unit is formed along
the line of the initial comat of the first, conforming elements.

Needless to say, the elements at the other end of the line move
something like 280 paces.

Question 1 - if there are further enemy units in the new charge path;
that is to say, the vast arc of the field covered by the 6E wide body
whipping around, what is their status?>>
[
That is not the charge path. Any adjustment by the body to conform or line up
does not change the charge path. Therefore you cannot use conforing or lining
up to alone to contact new enemy.

<<If the 20 Pace rule applies to the rest
of the units, how does the 12E body conform?>>
[
It may not be able to. It is sometimes the case, especially with such events,
that conforming and/or lining up is not possible.

<< How does it conform after
the combat is fought? Does this become a "fit" issue where, if the whole
12E body cannot complete the massive wheel caused by "conforming" or
"Lining up" the whole charge becomes illegal? >>
[
I'd have to see the charge. It is *possible* that is true, but I am not sure I
am visualizing your situation correctly.

<<If the last is true, was
the charge declaration illegal in the first place?>>
[
It might be.

<<Question 2 - Same as above, except that now the 12E body makes the flank
contact on a converted charge. Does this change the answers?>>
[
Some of them. A converted charge is a combat results move that results in new
contact. It does not happen in the charge phase and does not have all the rules
associated with that.

<<Question 3 - Same as above, except the 12E body's initial charge is at a
body that evades, uncovering the flank of a new enemy that leads to the
"whip around" effect. Can the whip around cause the 12E body to gain
enough distance to catch the evader?>>
[
No. But we might be victims of using the words 'whip around' when none such
exist in the Warrior rules. Can you use the extra 'movement' during conforming
to make contact? No.

<< If not, where do the elements that
aren't allowed to catch the evader halt? Can the uncontacted evader make
the charge illegal because of fit (if that was the answer back in
question 1?)>>
[
I cannot visualize what you are saying. since the only way something can 'whip
around' is during conforming, that means that body has already made conatct.
How could it then be contacting something else uncovered? Since the conforming
alone cannot allow you to make contact, such a thing is not possible.

We could really use a diagram or set of diagrams here.

<<Different question altogether - in the orders section, when the bullets
on the order state that "Other troops cannot declare charges unless
prompted" (Hold) or "Other troops cannot declare charges unprompted"
(Delay) or "Missile troops cannot declare any charges unless prompted"
(Attack) does this mean that bodies in these order situations must be
prompted to charge if a prompt is required, but still do not need to be
prompted in accordance with the bullets in 6.163; or does it mean what
it says; that is, that despite the provisions of 6.163, these units,
even if facing a flank, a disordered charge target, etc, etc, must be
prompted to charge?>>
[
I want to take my taime answering this part of your question, if you don't mind.
I am in the middle of revising that language for the rulebook revision and want
to make sure I get my answer right.

J

J