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X-Rules and fog of war
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Don Coon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought that
was
> standard practice.


I used to do this too. It is however illegal and I do not do it any longer.
I likedit because it added to fog of war, but the cries of cheese tactic
made me realize I was in the minority.

Don

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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought
that was
standard practice.

>No. In fact, I've specifically told people in tournaments NOT to do
this. I find this extremely gamesmanship-ish, but, that's just my
opinion.

>But, don't do it in any tourney I happen to ump:)Smile:)

Scott


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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


I used to do this too. It is however illegal and I do not do it any
longer.
I likedit because it added to fog of war, but the cries of cheese tactic
made me realize I was in the minority.

>I replied to the first post before I saw this one. "Cheese tactic", I
like that, diplomatic but gets across the "you be a slimeball"
perspective without saying it in so many words:)Smile:)

Scott
Ump Ho


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Greg Regets
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


This is gamesmanship, but spending 15 minutes counting scouting points is not?

Why not come up with a good method of rolling for flank marches. I heard a
suggestion once that a player use their approach roll, under the same conditions
as exist for a current flank march.

G
----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules]X-Rules and fog of war


I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought
that was
standard practice.

>No. In fact, I've specifically told people in tournaments NOT to do
this. I find this extremely gamesmanship-ish, but, that's just my
opinion.

>But, don't do it in any tourney I happen to ump:)Smile:)

Scott











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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, jwilkinson62 wrote:
> One very good way
> to fix this would be to report your scouting points to the tournament
> director and have him write on the paring who is outscouted or not.
> What does everyone think about that?

I think that if enough messages are sent, one of them has to make sense
eventually Wink.

OK, ok, that was a low blow. But I completely agree w/ Kelly here: this
would be quick, easy, and beneficial.

[I'm also in the camp that would permit/encourage rolling for non-existent
flank marches, but that will not surprise those who know me Smile]

Ewan

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


The worst case of counting I personally experienced was when a guy who asked
me the morale class of one of my units (whether they were irreg Cıs or Dıs).
I told him that he wouldnıt know that information. He replied that since he
knew the point total and he could see the book with my army list, he would
be able to figure out their morale class. I told him to go right ahead and I
went to the bathroom. When I got back he decided that they were indeed Cıs
(of course they were actually Dıs). But in principal, if his basic
arithmetic skills had been a bit better, he could have figured it out. I
guess there is nothing one can do about this sort of behavior though.


> At least in our area, I think the guys try to get the game going asap, without
> doing things like sitting there and counting scouting points for ten minutes.
> I believe the guys in Dallas even use a time clock for movement, and if you
> sat there counting scouting points in San Antonio, you will probably be asked
> if your husband or boyfriend plays WARRIOR too. ~wink~



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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Charles Randow wrote:
> guess there is nothing one can do about this sort of behavior though.

Call over your friendly Umpire Ho, who will beat him upside the head and
tell him to get moving Smile.

[I do think that there are some cases where similar stuff is justified.
In my Imperialists, for instance, I have both Reg and Irreg SHK L, Sh. If
Irreg, they're B class; if Reg, they're C. I have no problem telling the
oppo that. If, however, it was something like Teuts where almost any
morale class is possible, then it's their problem. (IrrA types can cause
issues b/c of their special restrictions, but I think noting 'so, those
can't be IrrA because they didn't charge' will take care of 99% of any
problems)]

e

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Chris Bump
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 8:35:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gar@... writes:

> Why not come up with a good method of rolling for flank marches. I heard a
suggestion once that a player use their approach roll, under the same conditions
as exist for a current
> flank march.

I always liked this idea (alot!), but again, we are beating a dead horse. The
arguments were made, considered (I assume) and rejected. The issue of scouting
points is new, and different and I think innovative as it allows for actual
deception in the game without cheating or being a cheese *&%$.
Reasonable arguments have been made that there would be some clamour and dust
that would give rise to concerns about an arriving flank march. The actual
rolling of the die equates to these signals. Blind rolling of the die
eliminates any knowledge of arriving troops until a 5 or 6 is rolled and noone
or someone shows up. I understand and in no small part agree with this point of
view.
Chris

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> > I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought that
> > was standard practice.

> I used to do this too. It is however illegal and I do not do it any
> longer.
> I likedit because it added to fog of war, but the cries of cheese
> tactic
> made me realize I was in the minority.
>
> Don


Don, when you have rules handy (or if anyone else wants to find it) can you tell
me where it says that's illegal? I don't see it as cheese at all -- without
this tactic, if I want to use flank marches, you know it immediately and I lose
an important element of surprise.


Tony

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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


If you are looking for deceiving your opponent as much
as the arguements are telling me than there are other
ways.

Flank march on both sides - one unit on one side, and
a command on the other.

Flank march, but keep a unit that contains scouting
points ambushed in the woods so your opponents does
not know the true # of scouting points.

Flank march a non-scouting point unit and ambush some
LC or such.

I'm assuming the "rolling" was to simulate the ruckus
the flank march was making or the dust is was creating
giving the opposing army an idea that one was on the
way. You can't then roll for one that is not making
all the noise or creating the dust that would be seen
by their movement.

Todd K

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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> Why not come up with a good method of rolling for flank marches. I
heard a suggestion once that a player use their approach roll, under
the same conditions as exist for a current flank march.
>
> G


**** Good idea Greg! Perhaps we could implement that as standard
practice at tourments!

kelly


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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> I think that if enough messages are sent, one of them has to make
sense
> eventually Wink.
>
> OK, ok, that was a low blow. But I completely agree w/ Kelly here:
this
> would be quick, easy, and beneficial.
>
> [I'm also in the camp that would permit/encourage rolling for non-
existent
> flank marches, but that will not surprise those who know me Smile]
>
> Ewan

**** LOL! I especially agree with this in Iron man tournaments where
there is only 1 list allowed to minimize the workload on the
tournament parings guy!

Kelly
"Tournament Workload HO"


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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Charles Randow <clr198@p...> wrote:
> The worst case of counting I personally experienced was when a guy
who asked
> me the morale class of one of my units (whether they were irreg Cıs
or Dıs).
> I told him that he wouldnıt know that information. He replied that
since he
> knew the point total and he could see the book with my army list,
he would
> be able to figure out their morale class. I told him to go right
ahead and I
> went to the bathroom. When I got back he decided that they were
indeed Cıs
> (of course they were actually Dıs). But in principal, if his basic
> arithmetic skills had been a bit better, he could have figured it
out. I
> guess there is nothing one can do about this sort of behavior
though.
>
>
> > At least in our area, I think the guys try to get the game going
asap, without
> > doing things like sitting there and counting scouting points for
ten minutes.
> > I believe the guys in Dallas even use a time clock for movement,
and if you
> > sat there counting scouting points in San Antonio, you will
probably be asked
> > if your husband or boyfriend plays WARRIOR too. ~wink~


I have to admit that this happened to me once before a few years ago
when I visited an aquaintance for a game. He demanded to know the
morale class of some Mamaluks to which I replied that he would have
to guess that or look at the possibilities in the list until they
needed to waver test or fought. It made for a very interesting
evening. . . Sometimes there is validity though for knowing the
mettle of your enemy's units. Many guard units will have been well
established and knowledge of status in regard to training such as
regular or irregular may be standard knowledge to the local
commanders. But present morale grade is a very iffy thing. What if
the troops didn't get paid on time recently? LOL!


Kelly
"Morale Grade HO"


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Chris Bump
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 1:35:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jwilkinson62@... writes:

> He demanded to know the
> morale class of some Mamaluks to which I replied that he would have
> to guess that or look at the possibilities in the list until they
> needed to waver test or fought. It made for a very interesting
> evening. . . Sometimes there is validity though for knowing the
> mettle of your enemy's units. Many guard units will have been well
> established and knowledge of status in regard to training such as
> regular or irregular may be standard knowledge to the local
> commanders. But present morale grade is a very iffy thing.
> What if
> the troops didn't get paid on time recently? LOL!
>
>
> Kelly

Again, as standard fare we simply tell our opponents what the morale can be.
With my Polybians, for example, if I take any Hastati as LHI they can only be
Reg C. Close order are allowed to be upgraded. So I have no problem telling my
opponent that, because he can always delay the game and look that info up. My
Velites can be upgraded to Reg B, so if asked I will tell him that they start as
C's and can be upgraded to B's.

Pat's Chinese nomads can be upgraded from irr C to irr A. A new opponent will
be told that the figures are infact Chinese and that they can be irr C or irr A.
If we discover one of his units to be entirely irr A, we can then deduce that at
least one other is not because he told us that only 1/2 could be upgraded.
Again, we could have wasted the time to look it up or he could tell us. I don't
believe your opponent has the right to know a unit's morale in the event that
its level of morale is variable, but if it is fixed, like for example my Triarii
are Reg B with no flexibility, then it only saves time to tell him so.
Chris

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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> I'm assuming the "rolling" was to simulate the ruckus
> the flank march was making or the dust is was creating
> giving the opposing army an idea that one was on the
> way. You can't then roll for one that is not making
> all the noise or creating the dust that would be seen
> by their movement.
>
> Todd K

Todd...Todd tisk, tisk!
I'm sure that you may have forgotten that the Mongols(sneaky
little heathens that they were!) would send small numbers of flankers
out with their extra tether of horses to deceive their enemies into
thinking they were being taken in the rear and flanks by enemy
cavalry thus causing all sorts of consternation while using very
little manpower. Perhaps in an X rule flankers could be purchased by
those armies that used this tactic thereby allowing the dice roll.
Further, to maintain ones secrecy, an option could be given to the
arriving general to delay entry by a turn or two which would further
confuse an opponent! What is your opinion O' Master of Swiss Pike!?

Kelly
"Leader of Silly Impetuous Charges into Pikes!"


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