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X-Rules and fog of war
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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


we roll for approaches whether we plan to do one or not.

there is no real difference.

hence our thinking that it is ok to roll for flank marches whether we plan to
do one or not. logical?

i state again - where does it say you should not roll for a flank march if
you have not got one?

mm


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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Kelly,

Those small numbers of Mongol horsemen could be a unit
of 4 LC which would also represent the ruckus your
opponent is waiting for. The game has the mechanics
set up you just have to play around w/ it if you are
concerned w/ deceiving your opponent.

Todd

--- jwilkinson62 <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
> > I'm assuming the "rolling" was to simulate the
> ruckus
> > the flank march was making or the dust is was
> creating
> > giving the opposing army an idea that one was on
> the
> > way. You can't then roll for one that is not
> making
> > all the noise or creating the dust that would be
> seen
> > by their movement.
> >
> > Todd K
>
> Todd...Todd tisk, tisk!
> I'm sure that you may have forgotten that the
> Mongols(sneaky
> little heathens that they were!) would send small
> numbers of flankers
> out with their extra tether of horses to deceive
> their enemies into
> thinking they were being taken in the rear and
> flanks by enemy
> cavalry thus causing all sorts of consternation
> while using very
> little manpower. Perhaps in an X rule flankers could
> be purchased by
> those armies that used this tactic thereby allowing
> the dice roll.
> Further, to maintain ones secrecy, an option could
> be given to the
> arriving general to delay entry by a turn or two
> which would further
> confuse an opponent! What is your opinion O' Master
> of Swiss Pike!?
>
> Kelly
> "Leader of Silly Impetuous Charges
> into Pikes!"
>
>


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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> guess there is nothing one can do about this sort of behavior though.

Call over your friendly Umpire Ho, who will beat him upside the head and
tell him to get moving Smile.

>Yup, it's good to be king sometimes. Charlie, seriously, anybody who
took that approach with you shoulda been subjected to some of my "charm"
for doing so. The reason the 14.0 stuff is in Warrior is to provide a
quick, easy intro into tournaments without dealing with the kinda stuff
you describe.

[I do think that there are some cases where similar stuff is justified.
In my Imperialists, for instance, I have both Reg and Irreg SHK L, Sh.
If
Irreg, they're B class; if Reg, they're C. I have no problem telling
the
oppo that. If, however, it was something like Teuts where almost any
morale class is possible, then it's their problem.

>And there's the old "floating B class Inca" tactic. That's where you
have both B and C class Incas and, golly gee Beaver, everytime a unit in
question needs to take a waver test, it just "happens" to be B.

>There is precious little any umpire can do about cheating other than to
toss the person out with an edict never to come back. In situations
like the Inca, it's best to simply ask the player if he has some type of
marker or something to identify the units so that you can track them if
need be. Yunno, 99 times out of 100, this isn't needed but it's that 1
time that you always remember.

scott


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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Please remember that 14.0 is only a GUIDE - a recommended way to do
competition games - not an absolute that all competition games MUST be
done
that way.

>I might add that tournament gaming, by it's very nature, is an
artificial construct. Because of the inherent competitive aspect of the
game and some of the *people* involved, things can get ugly from time to
time. My goal has always been to minimize some of the things that, when
combined with other things, often add up to some minor explosion.

>So, because tournaments, generally speaking your results may vary, are
set piece affairs, I've pretty much pushed simplifying things to reduce
some of the "gamesmanship" issues and let players concentrate on playing
the game. Two of those have been "no rolling for non-existent flank
marches", and "okay, how many scouting points aren't visible?" Each
takes no time to do and reduces some of the stress load.

>This issue is somewhat akin to the old "gamesmanship" ploy by players
using darts. Said player would refer to the rules saying his figures
were representative, yadda yadda yadda, and that since darts were
"hidden" behind a shield, said player's opponent couldn't "see" them so
they weren't declared at the start of the game. I always hated this for
the philisophical reasons mentioned above and that's why such things
were incorporated into Warrior once we got the chance to clean things
up.

>Fog of war is great, don't get me wrong. I just don't feel that in the
artificial confines of competitive tournament gaming, it adds anything
but aggravation and as we all know, there are always players that can be
aggravating.

Scott
Aggravation Ho


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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


A lot of our games seem to have woods in one corner and a major water feature
on the other flank (because i nearly always select them and am lucky with the
dice) and as most of the armies in our group have no boats, the rolling for
arrival of a flank march now tells me you definately have one and exactly
where it is going to be.

Combined with telling me how many missing scouting points there are, i can
make a fairly accurate guess as to what is flank marching and where it is
going to arrive.

Seems to take the sting out of it completely.

Just my opinion. I have been playing ancients on and off for 20 years
(several hundred games) and rarely actually use a flank march, but my
opponents often do.

I guess they won't bother in future.

mark mallard



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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


"Holder, Scott " wrote:
> >And there's the old "floating B class Inca" tactic. That's where you
> have both B and C class Incas and, golly gee Beaver, everytime a unit in
> question needs to take a waver test, it just "happens" to be B.

Hey, there's an idea....

;)

Well, OK, maybe not. But on the topic: I've seen either notes on the
underside of bases (which can be picked up to check by the owner without
revelation to the oppo) or differential colouring of the base edges
(which is classier, and can be done on the rear edge for added security
if you think your opponent might sit there trying to crack the code; on
the other hand, taking his attention away from the game might be a good
thing...). In most cases, I guess that the troops of better morale
should probably look a little different, but it's hard to enforce this -
what if they're *all* B?

E

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Patrick Byrne
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> i state again - where does it say you should not roll for a flank march if
> you have not got one?

14.45, but what you are going to find is that flank marches are written as
deployment orders, and a d6 is rolled for arrival of those unit(s).

'You wouldn't roll a d6 for arrival of units that do not have flank march
deployment orders,' should answer your question.


-PB

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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


14.45, but what you are going to find is that flank marches are written
as
deployment orders, and a d6 is rolled for arrival of those unit(s).

'You wouldn't roll a d6 for arrival of units that do not have flank
march
deployment orders,' should answer your question.

>Extreeeeeeeemely well put. Let me reiterate (as Chief Umpire Dood for
Warrior, not List Ho), I consider rolling for non-existent flank marches
all the negative connotations that have been related here by players
over the previous several days. If we have to, we can put this in a FAQ
if it doesn't qualify in the Rules Ho's mind as a clarification.

Scott
Umpire Ho


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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


I'm not sure Todd, but in the old game didn't Phis equate each figure
of cavalry to be 80 men and horses. I'm sure it would take fewer than
320 men with their tether of 6-8 horses each (minimum of 1,920
horses) to trick the enemy! Remember, the mongols had numerous
remounts they brought along in campaigns as did other horse tribes.
It seems that this tactic could actually be pulled off with fewer
than one figure of cavalry.

Kelly


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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


--- In WarriorRules@y..., "jwilkinson62" <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> I'm not sure Todd, but in the old game didn't Phil(**mispelled word-
-must be hanging out too much in the basement too much!) equate each
figure
> of cavalry to be 80 men and horses. I'm sure it would take fewer
than
> 320 men with their tether of 6-8 horses each (minimum of 1,920
> horses) to trick the enemy! Remember, the mongols had numerous
> remounts they brought along in campaigns as did other horse tribes.
> It seems that this tactic could actually be pulled off with fewer
> than one figure of cavalry.
>
> Kelly


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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Scott and I will talk offline about how besto handle this because of the
mixing of NASAMW and FHE issues here, but if you are using 14.45 in your
competition game you do NOT roll for a non-existent flank march.

I think I can also safely say that NASAMW is not going to be modifying that
part of 14.0 in any of its tourneys anytime soon.. :)

BUT, you can do what you like in your own tournament, and I would encourage
not-entirely-14.0 experimentation in non-NASAMW tourneys.

Jon


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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Kelly,

I'm just trying to make the point that it requires a
very little flank march to cause anxiety for your
opponent. There are so many ways to deceive your
opponent w/o giving away what you are sending on a
flank march.

Todd

--- jwilkinson62 <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure Todd, but in the old game didn't Phis
> equate each figure
> of cavalry to be 80 men and horses. I'm sure it
> would take fewer than
> 320 men with their tether of 6-8 horses each
> (minimum of 1,920
> horses) to trick the enemy! Remember, the mongols
> had numerous
> remounts they brought along in campaigns as did
> other horse tribes.
> It seems that this tactic could actually be pulled
> off with fewer
> than one figure of cavalry.
>
> Kelly
>
>


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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Todd,
I understand the point your were making and it is valid and well
taken. I was just jumping on the bandwagon to allow for more "fog of
war" considerations rather than deception. It seems to me that in
real historical battlefield situations, the threat of an enemy
flanking maneuver is always present. In our simulation of this, we
are trying to simulate as much as possible for a more realistic
situation for a game. I'm all for maximum choices. As an x rule,
something that makes the game a little more intersting is always fun.
When thinking about this issue, I always remember in my reading of
American History how the Appache indians would use horses with brush
tied to their horses and stir up a huge dust cloud to deceive the
American Cavalry into thinking the Appache's numbers were greater
than they were. I'm just saying that it wouldn't take that many
horsemen to do pull something like this off. The neat thing about the
initiative die roll taking care of the flank march is that the
element of surprise is not given away like we presently do.
All in all, as is usual, I appreciate hearing your opinion!

Kelly

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Don Coon
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> > I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought
that
> > > was standard practice.
>
> > I used to do this too. It is however illegal and I do not do it any
> > longer.
> > I likedit because it added to fog of war, but the cries of cheese
> > tactic
> > made me realize I was in the minority.
> >
> > Don
>
>
> Don, when you have rules handy (or if anyone else wants to find it) can
you tell
> me where it says that's illegal? I don't see it as cheese at all --
without
> this tactic, if I want to use flank marches, you know it immediately and I
lose
> an important element of surprise.
>
>
> Tony

That is always how I felt. I do not have my rules here, but I know Scott
has made his displeasure known about it. We try here in DFW to conform to
the world at large so we have discontinued the practice.

Don

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Please Charles, no triple negatives. Smile I am trying to reduce them, not
increase them....lol

Jon


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