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X-rules in NASAWM events

 
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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: X-rules in NASAWM events


In a message dated 6/2/2004 15:21:51 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

Putting my money where my mouth is: I'll gladly run a 1200 point mini event
on
the Friday of Historicon 2005 that incorporates some x-rules if FHE and
Warrior
players at large would like to see such an event.>>

Mark, FHE wants what its players want... so sure....

J


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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: X-rules in NASAWM events


--- On June 2 John said: ---

> While I think the vast majority of players support you in your
> committment to rules stability I am not so certain that they are not
> perfectly willing to try stuff out, even in the NICT - but generally
> given the pattern of many people's playing opportunities I think
> realistically the point made earlier is correct that the onus for
> this is going to fall on the tournament organizers (just like the
> whole 14.0 issue).

John is responding here to something that's been bugging me. In these
discussions, there are some subtle themes projected that I think are incorrect:
- Warrior players are either "tournament" players or "historical" players;
- "Tournament" players would oppose any rules changes because they want
tournament play to remain glacially stable;
- "Historical" players are very interested in x-rules because they're always
looking for a better simulation of their period;
- Most players think of themselves more as "tournament" players than
"historical" players.

I consider myself primarily a tournament player, but I also have strong periods
of historical interest (Middle Ages, Late Byzantines, Crusades, Medieval powers
of the Mediterranean). I think I'm fairly typical of most tournament-oriented
players, though there are exceptions (Frank Gilson, perhaps Ewan). I certainly
don't see "tournament" and "history" as an either/or.

I'm not opposed in principle to rules changes, even in the NICT. Nor do I think
most tournament players would be. All of us have game balance "nits" just as
more historically-oriented players have realism "nits". I do think any rules
changes should be approached slowly and with great caution, but as long as a
good faith effort has been made to do so in a public and well-tested manner,
I'll be fine. I'll adapt. I've already had one of my favorite armies ruined by
the new lists (Khazars), and accepted it cheerfully. It happens. I have other
armies to play, and I'll adapt and move on. I suspect most other players feel
the same, so long as they don't feel "ambushed" by the process. Openness is the
key here, and FHE has a pretty good track record so far.

I do think the quest for simulation is doomed to failure (and I don't think FHE
have fallen for that trap). The ways in which Warrior is an excellent
simulation are all at a high level of abstraction: its a good simulation of the
importance of combined arms, of the importance of spacing vs. support between
units, of the impact of morale on ancient armies, etc. The rules place an
emphasis on generalship and command control, rather than on exact replication
of historical troop types. Knowing where to draw the line and not
"over-simulate" what we cannot know precisely anyway is one of the things I
like best about Warrior.

Warrior can be a better simulation than it is today, and can have better game
balance than it has today. Any such changes should of course be made slowly and
cautiously. But I think there's a big difference between (a) saying the
consensus is for a "go slow" approach and (b) saying that there's a tournament
type of player who is the majority and who is absolutely opposed to any rules
changes. The latter claim strikes me as a myth and prejudice of a particularly
insulting kind.

Putting my money where my mouth is: I'll gladly run a 1200 point mini event on
the Friday of Historicon 2005 that incorporates some x-rules if FHE and Warrior
players at large would like to see such an event.


-Mark Stone

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: X-rules in NASAWM events


In a message dated 6/3/2004 17:05:27 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

I would be interested in (a) seeing some x-rules tested, and (b) having some
official FHE support for this kind of testing (and no, Jon, a mere "Hey,
whatever you guys want...." from you is not what I mean by official
support).>>
I totally support testing of x-rules in all non-NICT events at CW/FI/HCon.
However, please be aware that these are NASAMW events - dues paying,
attending NASAMW members support these events and it is their opinion that
matters.
For FHE's part, what i think we could do is collate all the x-rules (there
are now 5 versions of the CO 120p rules alone...) and put 3-5 online that have
the most 'likelihood' of ever being part of the rules and would best be
served by playtesting. Would that help?
As people have already gotten their armies and been practicing for the
theme, which btw contains roman list rules for the first time, i think we are
talking mini or open here if anything and even then, we are now a little over a
month out - but that is NASAMW's decision to make, not ours.
Maybe something for Fall In?
Jon



We may not get there all at once, or particularly soon, but I'd like to see a
move in that direction. I'm willing to back that to the extent of
volunteering
to run some kind of event on Friday Historicon 2005.




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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: X-rules in NASAWM events


Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:24:22 -0500
> From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: (unknown) X-rules in NASAWM events
>
> I would tell you, however, that - in my opinion only - I would never vote
> for x-rules in the NICT. To me, the NICT (in its role as the US Nationals)
> is
> the premier showcase of a player's ability to play Warrior. Having x-rules
> thrown in would change the nature of the competition to something other than
> that.
>
> >That sums how I feel about it as well. Love x-rules, just don't love em in
> the NICT.
>

So, I'm not quite sure how this idea got off track, but it is certainly NOT what
I was hinting at earlier in this thread.

The NICT is the NICT. Only the official rules should be said. I don't know of
anyone who has an interest in seeing things otherwise. Same goes for Team
Tourney at Cold Wars.

Having said that, there is a sense of official interest, if not support, that
rubs off onto any event at either Historicon or Cold Wars. And there are plenty
of Warrior events at both that are not the NICT nor the Team Tourney: there are
theme events, open events, minis, Fast Warrior tourneys.... it is at these that
I would be interested in (a) seeing some x-rules tested, and (b) having some
official FHE support for this kind of testing (and no, Jon, a mere "Hey,
whatever you guys want...." from you is not what I mean by official support).

We may not get there all at once, or particularly soon, but I'd like to see a
move in that direction. I'm willing to back that to the extent of volunteering
to run some kind of event on Friday Historicon 2005.


-Mark Stone

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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:18 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: X-rules in NASAWM events


We may not get there all at once, or particularly soon, but I'd like to see a
move in that direction. I'm willing to back that to the extent of volunteering
to run some kind of event on Friday Historicon 2005.

>Friday at Hcon is the Theme, I think next year is Alex and the Successors or
something along those lines. If you wanna be the umpire for that, great. If
you wanna use "X" number of X-rules for that great. We can talk post-Hcon about
it.

scott


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