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[Fwd: List selection]

 
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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


Guys opinions are fine - why bicker?

I like to hear both sides of the discussion without it degenerating into a
row.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:45 pm    Post subject: [Fwd: List selection]


JonCleaves@... wrote:
> First, a note to new players. Ewan wrote a great piece. It is also only one
person's opinion. We can and probably will argue all day about his points, but
be careful not to take some of the more 'definitive' statements as the way it
absolutely has to be. For example:

Oh, sure, my opinions. Note that Jon's are also just that. I'd be
interested to see a companion piece - by him or someone else - 'how to
defeat Ewan' army list selection' Smile.

> Climate can matter greatly. It is another tool the 14.0 competition rules
give the player to influence the battlefield. Just because Ewan does not care
hardly makes the probability of getting the terrain you like irrelevant.

As I noted, climate might perhaps influence the choice between two
similar armies. Nonetheless, for those new players reading, I advise -
and believe most would agree - that this should not be in the top one
hundred things to think about in army selection.

> The primary waver close foot take isn't always for routing friends. To use
Ewan's writing style, my opponent's close foot will be taking wavers for second
cause of disorder as they continue to recoil from mounted and/or take 2x and 1
CPF.

Possibly the case, sure. But again, Jon, I noted explicitly that this
way of thinking was one of several options, dictated by gaming
philosophy. And for the benefit of those new readers - for whom this
whole thing is written, of course: pikemen in general do not need to
worry about being charged frontally by mounted when they are accompanied
by elephants who will both disorder and scare said mounted. Nor indeed
when not so accompanied, if in large units, in general.

> My skirmishers aren't going to be chased away by chariots, scythed or
otherwise. My skirmishers plan to shoot any chariots to irrelevancy.

Nice approach; however, unless they can do 15 CPF in prep shooting at
long range, those LI *are* going to take an uneasy waver test (because
of a chariot) and if they fail, are likely to take a second (for being
burst through or recoiled disordered), which may well rout them.

As I said, a detailed response setting out plans for dealing with the
Seleucids would be useful. But I shall restrain myself, and try not to
get into a sniping match about the detailed tactics. New players not
somehow vexed by such are welcome to ask or disagree by email, and I
promise to treat you more gently than Jon...

> Yes, B-armed troops must be prompted to charge. It's a great rule, not silly
at all. Ewan is neither overly concerned with history, nor a game designer.
The first of those four statements is true. The last two are false, the
second is debatable. Nor did I make any claim about the rule in
general, but only about its application to elephants. I'm not sure
whether Jon is aware of that or not, however.

> He's a power gamer of the most advanced sort. I'm not sure he realizes
sometimes who reads this list, or how important our new, especially crossover,
players are to us. I am sure he does not realize how much offline mail I am
about to receive asking me if some of these things are true...lol

What, exactly, is a 'power gamer'?

> My biggest concern is that statements of the sort: 'X troop type sucks - I
would never waste my time on it' are very dangerous statements. There are times
to pay for morale, times to pay for armor and times not to pay for shields.
Blanket statements like those that permeate Ewan's otherwise extremely useful
posting can be very misleading. His army choices suit a certain style of play -
very different from other styles. But statements like these have deterred newer
players from taking certain troop choices that otherwise suit their developing
style very well, until they can be dissuaded from trying capture other's success
secrets - a trap I am just as guilty of, albeit at a younger age.

Y'know, by this point I actually went back and checked. Nowehere do I
make a statement of the type Jon attacks here; the closest I come is in
suggesting that Reg B HI units are overpriced by comparison with other
close foot, and is anyone actually running an army of Reg B HI? Gee,
really, no-one? Wonder why.

I was very careful, throughout, to explain the reasons behind each
choice and each opinion. Apparently my reputation got in the way of
Jon's reading.

> Ewan is a great player. It is his skill at seeing impending matchups and
making them happen his way that gets him wins, not the choice of C-class pike or
LMI Sh over shieldless LHI...

No, it's both.

Ack.

E

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


> Oh, sure, my opinions. Note that Jon's are also just that. I'd be
> interested to see a companion piece - by him or someone else - 'how to
> defeat Ewan' army list selection' Smile.
>
<<> As I noted, climate might perhaps influence the choice between two similar
armies. Nonetheless, for those new players reading, I advise - and believe most
would agree - that this should not be in the top one hundred things to think
about in army selection.>>

And I submit it is well in the top one hundred.

<<> > The primary waver close foot take isn't always for routing friends. To
use Ewan's writing style, my opponent's close foot will be taking wavers for
second cause of disorder as they continue to recoil from mounted and/or take 2x
and 1 CPF.
>
> Possibly the case, sure. But again, Jon, I noted explicitly that this way of
thinking was one of several options, dictated by gaming philosophy.>>

I disagree. This is not gaming philosophy opinion, it is pejorative:

"Removing the shields from the LHI would be stupid"

and the article is fraught with such language. I object. Period.

<< And for the benefit of those new readers - for whom this
> whole thing is written, of course: pikemen in general do not need to worry
about being charged frontally by mounted when they are accompanied by elephants
who will both disorder and scare said mounted.>>

But the kind of foot that can break or at least push back pike and do 2x and 1
is also not scared of elephants. See finals this year's NICT. Obviously I
included both methods to show what to do in the case of El marching along with
the P. Of course all that combat power in one lump begs to be screened into
irrelevancy, but I digress...

<< > My skirmishers aren't going to be chased away by chariots, scythed or
otherwise. My skirmishers plan to shoot any chariots to irrelevancy.

Nice approach; however, unless they can do 15 CPF in prep shooting at long
range, those LI *are* going to take an uneasy waver test (because of a chariot)
and if they fail, are likely to take a second (for being burst through or
recoiled disordered), which may well rout them.>>>>

I can counter to 121p and shoot. And the chariot isn't charging or causing any
wavers. We are kibbutzing here because for every micro-tactic there is a
counter tactic. Which is why I don't write micro-tactics pieces. All I was
saying is that you can't just dismiss the countertactic out of hand.

> As I said, a detailed response setting out plans for dealing with the
Seleucids would be useful. But I shall restrain myself, and try not to get into
a sniping match about the detailed tactics. >>

Exactly. Kibbitzing is not for me. For every tactic there is a counter and
only on the table in a game can it be proved who was right.

<< New players not somehow vexed by such are welcome to ask or disagree by
email, and I promise to treat you more gently than Jon...>>

Actually, old harsh Jon wrote them all an article on how to take an army list
from scratch, without pejorative. See this month's Spearpoint.

<< whether Jon is aware of that or not, however.>>

<<> Y'know, by this point I actually went back and checked. Nowehere do I
> make a statement of the type Jon attacks here; the closest I come is in
> suggesting that Reg B HI units are overpriced by comparison with other
> close foot, and is anyone actually running an army of Reg B HI? Gee,
> really, no-one? Wonder why.>>

I have several players, particularly interested in the history and theme
tourneys, making hoplite and roman lists. I object to the way you describe
their choices.

> Apparently my reputation got in the way of Jon's reading.>>

You have a rep? Really? Tell us about it.....


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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> I disagree. This is not gaming philosophy opinion, it is pejorative:
>
> "Removing the shields from the LHI would be stupid"
>
> and the article is fraught with such language. I object. Period.

Folks, go read for yourselves - or not. The article is in no way fraught
with anything of the kind.

> I can counter to 121p and shoot. And the chariot isn't charging or causing
any wavers. We are kibbutzing here because for every micro-tactic there is a
counter tactic. Which is why I don't write micro-tactics pieces. All I was
saying is that you can't just dismiss the countertactic out of hand.

Um, if you're staying 121p away from a chariot moving 120p, isn't the
chariot driving you back rather effectively?

> << New players not somehow vexed by such are welcome to ask or disagree by
email, and I promise to treat you more gently than Jon...>>
>
> Actually, old harsh Jon wrote them all an article on how to take an army list
from scratch, without pejorative. See this month's Spearpoint.

Read 'treat you more gently than i did Jon', not 'more gently than jon
does'.

Yes, I read your article. It resulted in a list that would ensure that
[I deleted this next line several times trying to find an accurate
description of the list without being perjorative. I don't think it's
possible.]

> I have several players, particularly interested in the history and
theme tourneys, making hoplite and roman lists. I object to the way
you describe their choices.

Because you think that all possible permutations from a list are equally
sensible? That's obviously not the case - but any other approach requires
that one have an opinion as to which of those possible permutations are
better, and why.

Enough from me. You don't like the piece, fine. I don't think that you
do Warrior a sevrice by responding in such manner, but can't prevent you
from doing so.

If you are genuinely running armies composed of all-HI Reg B close foot,
and winning, I'm amazed. Perhaps you'd care to expound on your latest
such victory?

E

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


In a message dated 10/21/2002 16:44:09 Central Daylight Time, cuan@...
writes:

> You got this right Mark (not that I know what a "row" is).
>

I agree. Today was hardly a 'row'....


> It sure is getting commonplace to see one's post immediately getting replied
> to in a demeaning manner.
>

Oh, don't be so hard on Ewan. He's not such a bad guy.... ;)

> If these were actual conversations face to face, I doubt that the tone would
> get so condescending so quickly.
>

You do have a point there. This would be a lot easier if we were all in the
same room, as very often, what sounds humorous and 'bantering' in one's head
as one writes a mail, is often not interpreted correctly when read. And
anyone here can call me stupid in an online article all he wants. That is
what the internet is for.....lol

> I as well like to hear both sides of the discussion (as do probably 250 of
> the other Generals on this group), but am finding it more and more arduous
> task to weed out the slander from the true content.

Gosh, and I went out of my way to put all those compliments in my mails, no
matter how undeserved....lol.
It must be a perspective thing. I went back over the little exchange from
today and I hardly see any reason to react that way to what was said.
Everyone involved is a grown man. Right?

Take a chill and run out and buy those killer Seleucids!!!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


> Enough from me.>>

Promises, promises. ;)

<< You don't like the piece, fine.>>

I'm an intel officer - I love it. Smile I don't like the tone of some parts of it
- but we can just agree to disagree on this and move on.

<<Perhaps you'd care to expound on your latest such victory?>>

I won a tournament in May with EIR, but don't find that particularly relevant.
Also, I am not comfortable talking about victories and such with a stranger -
and we haven't been properly introduced.....
Where I am from, talking about how good you are (smack is the slang) is for
friends and beer.

Jon, the ever-inciteful ;)


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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


> On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> > I disagree. This is not gaming philosophy opinion, it is pejorative:
> >
> > "Removing the shields from the LHI would be stupid"
> >
> > and the article is fraught with such language. I object. Period.

I know, back for more. Ever a sucker.

Basically, I decided that this needed to be defended more strongly.

Removing the shields from the LHI *WOULD* be stupid. It would be a bad
decision, and bad to such an extent that it would imply minimal
understanding at best of how such a change wil affect the troops'
abilities.

If the intent is to simulate an historical encounter, fine. In
designing an army list for a competition, which is the setting we're in,
such a choice would be dumb.

Now, is that perjorative? Of the choice, yes. If you had made such a
choice, would I be demeaning your army list construction? Yes. Would I
be right? Yes.

There are some things that are dumb, and wishing not to promote one army
list choice over another, even if possible, won't change that.

E

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Patrick Byrne
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1433

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


> From: markmallard77@...
> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:02 EDT
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: [WarriorRules] List selection]
>
> Guys opinions are fine - why bicker?
>
> I like to hear both sides of the discussion without it degenerating into a
> row.
>
> mark mallard
>

You got this right Mark (not that I know what a "row" is).

It sure is getting commonplace to see one's post immediately getting replied
to in a demeaning manner.

If these were actual conversations face to face, I doubt that the tone would
get so condescending so quickly.

I as well like to hear both sides of the discussion (as do probably 250 of
the other Generals on this group), but am finding it more and more arduous
task to weed out the slander from the true content.
-PB

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Don Coon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


A row is a verbal disagreement, usually involving ever loudening voices.
Cats do it at night too!

Man you need a kid. If you watched the Wiggles you would inderstand the
Kings English better!Smile BTW FYI it is pronounced as if it rhymed with
"how"

Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick" <cuan@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [WarriorRules] List selection]


> > From: markmallard77@...
> > Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:02 EDT
> > To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [WarriorRules] List selection]
> >
> > Guys opinions are fine - why bicker?
> >
> > I like to hear both sides of the discussion without it degenerating into
a
> > row.
> >
> > mark mallard
> >
>
> You got this right Mark (not that I know what a "row" is).

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Bill Low
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: [Fwd: List selection]


The controversy is exciting and illuminating ... but the tendency to get
into a huff and respond intemperately seems almost irresistible in an
online context. I guess that you just have to suppose that you are going
to get assaulted when you put out an opinion in this environment ... which
is not so bad, if you know that it is coming before you hit the "send" key
... it's just part of what goes on here.

The IMPORTANT thing is not to lose perspective, to continue to value the
other guy's point of view, and remember at the end of the day how totally
amazing it is that a community of (predominately) guys exists that actually
cares about this stuff! I know and like both Jon and Ewan, recognize that
they are very different but value them both hugely in different ways.
Somehow, makes it all seem worthwhile.

Keep it up ... and try to play nicely!

At 04:14 PM 10/21/2002 -0500, Patrick wrote:
> > From: markmallard77@...
>> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:02 EDT
>> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Fwd: [WarriorRules] List selection]
>>
>> Guys opinions are fine - why bicker?
>>
>> I like to hear both sides of the discussion without it degenerating into a
>> row.
>>
>> mark mallard
>>
>
>"" is).
>
> It sure is getting commonplace to see one's post immediately getting replied
> to in a demeaning manner.
>
> If these were actual conversations face to face, I doubt that the tone would
> get so condescending so quickly.
>
> I as well like to hear both sides of the discussion (as do probably 250 of
> the other Generals on this group), but am finding it more and more arduous
> task to weed out the slander from the true content.
> -PB
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
-----------------------------------------------------
From Harold William Low

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