Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[scott holder]

Cross posting here. Scroll down to the files section and you'll find the 2005 NICT lists. I'm sure we all eagerly



await Ewan's commentary.

scott

[Ewan McNay]

Ah, subtle sarcasm.

By popular demand - Scott notwithstanding - here's a set of comments. Feedback hugely welcome, even - especially! - if you're as snarky as I.

Anyone whose list I insulted who feels hard done by... that and $2 will get you a coffee, but I'd be delighted to discuss!

[joncleaves]

Excellent as always, Ewan.

I am even surprised to have the Han rated so highly, but the issue is that the team list from that year is the real boner where we tried to get fancy with Artillery with the extra 400 points instead of possibly the Xiong-nu. I will be back with Han when I have figured out exactly how best to deal with the minima....I think there's a good if not great list there, but this was not it.
The LCh generals caused a lot of unease fits and can also join LC or HC to charge (certain) LMI...
Unfortunately instead of facing knights or LTS/El armies, I faced Dave with Alexandrians in round one and both did something idiotic with terrain and forgot a list rule. Not to take away from his excellent play, but I will be glad when all this writing is final and I don't have to remember which version we are on....lol

As for the Hohenstaufens, there is some disgareement over whether the words 'German/Siculo-Italians' means all things labeled with the word 'German' or just the single German/Siculo Italian Knights line. Scott and Bill were looking into this even before Todd brought it up on the forum and the last word on list 18 has not been heard. In any case, that one list is still illegal.

Jon

[Mark Stone]

Ewan has once again done a great job of reviewing/analyzing the NICT lists. And, once again, while I agree with a lot of what he says, I do think there are some points of disagreement or at least things he's overlooked.

So, let me offer a bit of comment on his comments:

Alexandrian and other pike armies:
This is much more Ewan's area of expertise than mine. I don't think I've ever played a pike/elephant army, not even in a friendly pick-up game. I'll simply note that Frank Gilson's list and Dave Markowitz's list stand out as the best put together of this whole lot.

10 Independent States:
I find it interesting that Ewan gave Derek's version a 4 and my version a 6, yet Derek finished 2nd overall and I didn't even make the cut. I think there are several lessons in that:

Ultimately the player, not the list, makes the army;
There's suprise value in playing a list that constitutes an unexpected style. It can work to the player's advantage (Derek clearly confounded a number of his opponents), but can also work against a player (my game plan was not as well thought out as it should have been).

A couple of comments about this list. Both Derek and I made mistakes in how we constructed it. I learned a few things from Derek's list, namely how to create an effect rough terrain force out of available troops, and how to judiciously use regulars and C-class troops to beef up the army.

But I just don't think you can play this army with only one general, the way Derek has it; you're going to hit prompt point overload in some key bounds between a desire to prompt charges and a possible need to retire some troops. And although EHC is not my favorite shock troop type, I think you have to upgrade the generals all the way to EHC to get as much mounted shock power as you can. This costs only 4 points per general's stand, so it seems well worth it.

Both Derek and I made a major mistake in only taking one unit of fire lancers. They are one of the best things in the army, you can get two units, and you should take them both. To elaborate a bit further: this is the first army in Oriental Warrior that gets fire lance, and the presence of fire lance is one of the things that makes this list better than Later Tang. With fire lance, you get some legitimate shock foot, whereas the Tang really only have shock cav. Further, the fire lance foot can charge together with the elephants; a very nice combination. That combination is only available on two lists in all of Warrior: 10 Independent States and Ming Chinese. And getting it to work properly on the Ming list is highly problematic.

And for those of you wondering, yes, I may well reprise this list at this year's NICT. I've been deciding between three lists:

10 Independent States
Shang Chinese
Knights of Saint John

I've made my decision about which of the three to take; you'll see it in July.

Only a couple of comments about Hohenstafen:

If you want a mix of regular archers and Almughuvars, play Medieval Spanish;
If you want an abundance of less expensive knights (EHK/HK rather than SHK) and regular archers and other quality support troops, play Siculo Norman. I no longer see any reason to play Hohenstafen.

Nikephoran Byzantine: One criticism applies to both lists that were entered. You must take the SHC to make this list viable. Not only does it give you a better shock cav unit than HC or EHC, it reduces your minimum for the other cav. Note that a combined charge by non-impetuous SHC and impetuous, double-armed Varangians against a pike block should almost always have the result that pikes will recoil disordered. This same combination will also ruin peltasts, particularly since the SHC don't care about potential javelin fire from peltasts.

Take all the Varangians, and take them as LHI half 2HCW,JLS,Sh and half JLS,Sh. These are the best shock foot against elephants in the game (with the possible exception of Boran Norse Irish who can get the same armor and armament but as Irr A with a general).

I would never take any of the Byzantine close order foot, but that's a personal preference to some extent. Certainly I would make sure I had enough Varangians, adquate light troops, and then see about points left over for close order foot.

Incans: I disagree somewhat with Ewan's high praise for this rendition of the army. While I agree that the overall choice of LTS as a hand to hand weapon makes sense for the reasons stated, you can and should get several small units with HTW and several small units with 2HCT. Both can be held in reserve and used selectively where LTS just isn't going to get the job done.

Papal Italian: yes, this was Sean's list (he didn't play Swiss this past year). It's completely contrary to my playing style, but I like it nonetheless. Sean has that knack for taking an approach to an unexpected extreme, and suprising people with it. Nor do I think this army is as entirely helpless against elephants as it might seem. There's a reason for having the Reg A LHI JLS,Sh unit, particularly in tandem with dismounting knights. Elephants aren't the preferred matchup here, but there are things you can do to try and neutralize the elpehants and kill the rest.

Sassanid Persians: not much to say here. Against anything but an Alexandrian army Sassanids should be devestatingly effective, having great light troops, solid missile fire, and shock mounted with both reach (EHC/HC) and power (SHC/El). The head-to-head matchups against Alexandrian armies are a little difficult, and the complete lack of terrain troops concedes a real advantage to the Alexandrians as this is an area where they excel. But arguably it's better to do a few things superbly than a lot of things adequately; by that count, Sassanids excel. I remain convinced that anyone trying to chart their path to the NICT title must figure out how they are going to beat at least one pike/elephant army and at least one Sassanid army.

Han Chinese: I have looked extensively at the early Chinese lists, and while Han jumped out as my initial favorite, after time and further analysis I don't much care for it. While the minimums aren't as high as on lists like Marian Roman, you still end up paying a lot for required troops, and you have a bunch of desired troops that you want to get that are nonetheless quite expensive. The result risks being either too compact, or having light troops that are spread too thin. I think this army is at serious risk of being overwhelmed by sheer quantity in some opponents (of the lists in the NICT, Prussians comes to mind as one that might cause trouble). Of the early Chinese lists Qin is probably the best and best balanced, though I have a personal fondness for Shang and Zhou.

Medieval Spanish: It's a mistake to buy the longbowmen this way. If you are going to give longbowmen 2HCW, then you need to upgrade them to LHI so they have some staying power in hand-to-hand. Being shieldess LMI from bound 2 of combat on is just not a good thing. And if you're going to keep them as LMI, then you need to buy shields for the front rank. Reg Cs fail a counter 1/3 of the time, so worry about this scenario:

Bound N, you go into skirmish and evade away from some shooting-capable opponent.
Bounde N+1, you complete rallying but fail your counter to get into skirmish. Now you're shieldess LMI with shooters in front of you. Expect to be taking a lot of waver tests from here on out.

And that's my $.02 worth. Perhaps not as snarky as Ewan, perhaps not as valuable, but at least another perspective.


-Mark Stone

[Steve Hollowell]

Finishing last in my first ever Nict was not exactly the high point of my Warrior career, so knowing Ewan's review was coming was kind of like knowing a car wreck is about to happen. You just have to stop and stare even though you know the outcome will be awful.

Having said that, I am not shy about constructive criticism, so I will go ahead and post my list and Ewan's review here, followed by my questions and commentary. Feel free to join in the fun. I like to hear many perspectives.

[Ewan McNay]

Steven said:

[Ewan McNay]

Mark said:

[Steve Hollowell]

[Ewan McNay]

[Steve Hollowell]

Boo. I lost even without the illegal. The bet was either with Charles or Jon. I think it was Charles. Byzantines vs Sassanids.

[joncleaves]

It wasn't with me, I knew I ws going to get slammed....lol