Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

Here's a situation that came up between me and son 'o mine:

Unit A (Greek) is Fighting Unit X (Aztec) frontally. Unit Y (Aztec) is fighting Unit A on flank. Unit B (Greek) comes up and charges Unit Y in flank. Sort of a chain reaction deal. By die roll and according to rule, we are proceeding from left to right. Going from left to right, unit by unit, Unit A, being two-timed by X and Y, is broken. As we prepare to move on (to the right) to B's roll for his flank combat on Y, questions arise: 1. Do we roll B's combat and then have him test for seeing the rout of A? 2. If he shakes and still forces Y to breakoff, he would then improve to disordered, right? 3. Or do we resolve the entire maelstrom of four unit combat, assuming it to be simultaneous because all of the units are in contact with one of the three other units, in which case, B forcing Y to breakoff would add 1 to his waver dice, I believe?

Bottom line: in multiple unit melees, do you resolve all random rolls and casualties first and then take wavers, or waver test immediately? Or put differently, what is the definition of "combat situation" in the second paragraph of 9.1, and does one take waver tests as soon as it becomes clear a friendly unit will break, even if the "combat situation" is not complete???

[joncleaves]

All of the combat results in a combat situation must be determined before the first waver test is rolled.

Jon

[Bill Chriss]

Thanks, Jon. It is as we played it. Nonetheless, although it usually appears obvious or by agreement to the players, have you ever tried defining "combat situation" from a rules or clarification standppoint?[/code]

[joncleaves]

Bill, I checked the 9.1 definition of combat situation when I answered your question and saw no issue with it.

Here it is:

Complete one combat situation at a time before moving on
to the next, including waver tests and initial rout moves, in
the direction determined in 8.11. A combat situation is a
group of bodies interlinked in hand-to-hand combat.


Each combat situation and its effects are resolved in the
following sequence before proceeding to the next:
• Adjudicate support shooting casualties (8.9).
• Apply cohesion and waver test results of support
shooting (11.2).
• Adjudicate hand-to-hand combat casualties (9.4).
• Apply cohesion, fatigue and waver test results of
hand-to-hand combat and support shooting
combined (11.2).
• Perform combat results moves (recoils/follow-ups,
breakthroughs, break-offs/routs/pursuits) (6.3, 11.2).
• Take waver tests for seeing routing units, if any (5.5).

You'll note that combat situation is defined and that all waver tests from combat results are determined after all hth casualties are determined.

Jon

[Bill Chriss]

You're right. This is abundantly clear. Don't know why I missed the definition, which is quite sufficient. Maybe I just stopped reading after finding the initial rule in 9.1

[joncleaves]

Hey, everyone misses stuff, me included. I just wanted to be sure after all the drafts of the last year making the new book, that I had it right...lol

J

[John Murphy]

Wow, this is really really different from the way 'everyone I know' plays it.

So when a unit breaks in HtH nearby friendlies do not take an instant waver test, rather they resolve their combats (adjudicate casualties) first with the troop state they have before taking a waver and applying the result of the waver? Likewise for a catastrophe, all the combats get adjudicated first before any waver tests are taken?

No wait, I msread what you are saying... I think... you are saying do ALL the stuff in that list for the current combat before moving on to the next?

[joncleaves]

John

First, no body ever takes a waver test for a unit breaking. Bodies only ever take a waver test for seeing a rout move.

And yes, you do an entire combat situation - meaning a set of bodies that are all in contact with each other - before moving on.

Let's say you have three bodies - F1, F2 and E in a combat situation. F1 and F2 are friendly to each other and both in contact with E. When results are done F2 is broken and F1 recoils E. You complete the combat results moves where E recoils, F1 follows up (if eligible) and F2 routs. F1, if it was ever within 120p of F2 during F2's rout move, will now take a waver test. So will any other body within 120p whether in this combat situation, in one that has been completed or one yet to be done.

The idea of leaving the F1 v E combat results alone and ONLY doing F2 and E to see F2 break and then give F1 the waver test before its results are determined is illegal in two instances (there's no waver for someone breaking and you don't take wavers for pieces of combat situations until the results of that situation are complete). I have never seen anyone do this.

Jon

[Bill Chriss]

[joncleaves]

Yes, it sure would be.

Jon

[Bill Chriss]

New resolution: check rulebook (old and tattered) before posting stupid questions on forum. Found the answer in 5.52: must test for each friendly body "seen in rout and/or destroyed." I can't believe I've been doing this for this long and still don't know this stuff . The rule stated by Jon that bodies test for routs rather than breaks is concisely put and easy to remember. Thanks for the clarity.