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Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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John Murphy
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 Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: "real man's army" - everybody walks |
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I have been poking around for an alternative all-foot army which is interesting, colorful and playable in an open tournament (playable meaning not necessarily gonna win the NICT but that someone of my abilities could have a reasonable hope of winning a game or more and maybe finish mid-table).
I looked at the New World Warrior lists and kicked around especially the Aztec triple-alliance (not the Tlax with the Spanish since that includes mounted) but put it back on the back burner for now.
Similarly I looked briefly at Celtiberians and Gauls but I think they both require some mounted and also two of the locals play them a fair amount so I wanted to stick with something different.
So I wound up looking more diligently over the Viking, Norse-Irish and Boran Norse-Irish lists - especialy the latter with an eye toward using all the unique troop types and upgrades available to Brian Boru.
I wondered what the current verdict on feasibility for these armies would be, and if there were any subtle general recommendations on things to watch for or stay away from in building a list such as this. |
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Mark Stone
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: "real man's army" - everybody walks |
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| John Murphy wrote: |
I have been poking around for an alternative all-foot army which is interesting, colorful and playable in an open tournament .... I looked at the New World Warrior lists and kicked around especially the Aztec triple-alliance.... So I wound up looking more diligently over the Viking, Norse-Irish and Boran Norse-Irish lists - especialy the latter with an eye toward using all the unique troop types and upgrades available to Brian Boru.
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OK, from New World Warrior the best list w/o cav is Incan. There are a couple of reasons for this:
- Sling is a more potent weapon than dart;
- Incans can get some guys with 2HCT and some with HTW, which dramatically opens up your h-t-h options against other foot.
I love the idea of a list like Boran Norse Irish, and of all the lists from Scots-Irish up through Scots Common Army this is the best as an infantry army. Still, you face the problem that current open tournament play really stacks the deck against barbarian foot.
In my limited opinion (not having much direct playing experience with armies of this kind), you have to develop an effective two wave attack. What follows applies to all armies of this type, not just Boran Norse Irish:
The first wave is a bunch of guys who are lesser armed (maybe just JLS,Sh) and lesser morale, but high enough morale to be impetuous (Irr B in the front, or an element of Irr A in there. These units should go in no more than two ranks deep, as their goal is to put as many impetuous bodies on the enemy as possible. These guys are going to eventually rout and/or become exhausted. That's OK. They are relatively cheap, and they'll do some damage.
The second wave is your good stuff: guys who are LHI, or at least LHI in the front, guys who are entirely B or a mix of B and A class. They are going to have to waver test for some routing units, but they are going to pass those tests. These units should be in deeper columns, as their goal is to not absorb casualties too quickly and be able to hang around for a while. They should be looking, then, at some combination of:
- Enemy units who are tired
- Enemy units who are disordered
- Enemy units who are locked in combat with an exposed flank or overlapping element hanging out
Your second wave slams into the enemy where these kinds of opportunities present, and hopes to roll big dice.
You may not win most of the time this way, but you'll win some games, you'll enjoy every game, and no opponent is going to look forward to playing you.
-Mark Stone |
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scott holder
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Location: Bonnots Mill, MO
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yunno, this raises an interesting thematic tourney possibility.
Okay, typically when we do theme tournaments, they're historical in nature. I love that since it feeds into the historian in me AND plays to the strengths of Warrior as a simulation.
That being said, a theme tournament that consists of nothing but foot. By that I mean the army selected might theoretically allow for mounted (obviously not required) but that you couldn't bring any.
I think an exception to this would be mounted staff elements but not allowing said element to be in a 2E unit with another mounted element of some sort. This would allow for Romans. Oops, better check the army lists before I say that 
Furthermore, such a tourney might require a couple of x rules like increased deployment depth or something, to ensure everybody gets a chance to get into battle. Hmmmmm.
scott
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John Murphy
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: "real man's army" - everybody walks |
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| Mark Stone wrote: |
OK, from New World Warrior the best list w/o cav is Incan. There are a couple of reasons for this:
- Sling is a more potent weapon than dart;
- Incans can get some guys with 2HCT and some with HTW, which dramatically opens up your h-t-h options against other foot. |
Yeah they're great. Two problems with them for my purposes though. First, to me anyway they're all regulars and just lack the same human-sacrificing blood-drinking howling at the moon nasty color that the Aztecs have. But, second and more important even, yet another local plays them (and I might add plays them particularly, incredibly, well - one of the very hardest army/player combos to beat on the NoVa scene at least for me - he owns me in maybe five games I am 0-5 for a total score of maybe 7-25!).
| Mark Stone wrote: |
| The first wave is a bunch of guys who are lesser armed (maybe just JLS,Sh) and lesser morale, but high enough morale to be impetuous (Irr B in the front, or an element of Irr A in there. |
| Mark Stone wrote: |
| The second wave is your good stuff: guys who are LHI, or at least LHI in the front, guys who are entirely B or a mix of B and A class. |
So I am thinking the first wave here would have to be something like the Gall Gael, except they are all-A, or the Viking ally warrior spearmen with the front rank upgraded to B class.
Then the follow-up would be the 1.5-rank Viking Hirdsmen and Ostmen as well as the Irish Nobles and half-King's-Clansmen Bonnachts.
In fact maybe if the King's Clansmen upgrade to B was combined with the unwilling downgrade to D the Bonnachts would also make good cheap first-wave troops.
Anyway, just some initial thoughts. |
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joncleaves
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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I would (and will) absolutely do Spartacans.
Jon
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John Garlic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| joncleaves wrote: |
I would (and will) absolutely do Spartacans.
Jon |
I have played a Spartacan list with troop substitutes a couple times and they are tres kewl. Still have to work on anti-knight timing, but they gave quite a battle.
John Garlic |
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John Garlic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| joncleaves wrote: |
I would (and will) absolutely do Spartacans.
Jon |
I have played a Spartacan list with troop substitutes a couple times and they are tres kewl. Still have to work on anti-knight timing, but they gave quite a battle.
John Garlic |
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Todd Schneider
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Incans? Mayans? Feh. 
Look at Araucanians. Seriously. Close or Loose order Infantry that are all armed with B, can get HTW or 2HCW or JLS or LTS, upgradeable to Regular, Irr B or Irr A, and some pretty good LI, if you like running Irr B LI (Which I do).
I've played them for about a year now, and they are fun to play. IMO they are about the most customizable foot list out there.
Want some "Half Moogs"? Make a 4E Unit thats LMI 1/2 HTW, B, Sh; 1/2 JLS, B, Sh, and upgrade it to Irr B (or Irr A). Elephant Killers? Irr B MI (or LMI) 1/2 2HCW, B, Sh; 1/2 JLS, B, Sh. Mobile Terrain? MI LTS, B, Sh.
And the LI. I've gotten more looks of surprise when my LI JLS guys get shot for two and a Take the waver when they are Irr B. I know my LI will hold you up longer...
And, If you really want to mix things up, play the late period. Sure the General has to be on HC, but then you get to mix in some Regular Foot as well.
I've had a great time playing them, and in fact am surprised noones looked at them seriously before from a "fun" point of view.
Todd
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John Murphy
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Todd Schneider wrote: |
| Look at Araucanians. Seriously. Close or Loose order Infantry that are all armed with B, can get HTW or 2HCW or JLS or LTS, upgradeable to Regular, Irr B or Irr A, and some pretty good LI, if you like running Irr B LI (Which I do). |
In general, having seen how effective Inca slings are, I'd say bow is much inferior weapon as (a) close range is only 80p and more importantly (b) when you shoot you take return fire as unshielded MI/LMI which is dreadful. As a minimum perhaps the tactics are different - with the Incas the large units of LTS,S,Sh are just really tough to beat without some kind of Moogs-like troops or a combined arms method which is not always simple to time, and then they have little units more offensively armed to hit you in the flanks in a counter-punch.
Having a missile-reliant army, and paying the points for bows, is for me at least kind of missing the point of having a bunch of fanatic hairy barbarian foot dudes. In fact I think it makes them missile troops so if not Irreg A they actually have to be prompted to charge steady enemies frontally when under attack unders. Something I am wholly unused to with my Moldavians (where the HK is Irreg A and the other stuff is lights so anything heavy they _can_ charge they can charge without prompting).
I don't know much about Araucanians, not even sure I can reliably pronounce it. The possiblility of Irreg B and especially Irreg A troops is appealing (though the Irish have that option as well). I am sure from your described experience they are a good army and I'll take a look and see if the allure of Irreg A/B foot is sufficient to overcome the idea of a bunch of bow-shooters. |
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Tim Grimmett
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Late Feudal Japanese--some of the best foot in the game.... but a local player is playing them quite a bit as well, you just haven't drawn him lately.... 
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Tim Grimmett
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Late Feudal Japanese--some of the best foot in the game.... but a local player is playing them quite a bit as well, you just haven't drawn him lately.... |
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Todd Schneider
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| John Murphy wrote: |
| Todd Schneider wrote: |
| Look at Araucanians. Seriously. Close or Loose order Infantry that are all armed with B, can get HTW or 2HCW or JLS or LTS, upgradeable to Regular, Irr B or Irr A, and some pretty good LI, if you like running Irr B LI (Which I do). |
In general, having seen how effective Inca slings are, I'd say bow is much inferior weapon as (a) close range is only 80p and more importantly (b) when you shoot you take return fire as unshielded MI/LMI which is dreadful. |
True, which is why you must learn to split fire with Araucanians. I'm getting better at it, and against some opponenets (HYWE) who put out as much bowfire as I do, that task gets harder.
| Quote: |
As a minimum perhaps the tactics are different - with the Incas the large units of LTS,S,Sh are just really tough to beat without some kind of Moogs-like troops or a combined arms method which is not always simple to time, and then they have little units more offensively armed to hit you in the flanks in a counter-punch. |
I agree, but then I think what most smart players would do is stay 121 paces away with a couple of mounted units, and charge. If the Incans are in Skirmish, they have to run away, and therefore aren't really influencing that particular part of the battle to much. If they aren;t in skirmish, they take a waver, and one of the reasons that attracted me to Aracanians is that as close order, they will take fewer wavers.
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Having a missile-reliant army, and paying the points for bows, is for me at least kind of missing the point of having a bunch of fanatic hairy barbarian foot dudes. In fact I think it makes them missile troops so if not Irreg A they actually have to be prompted to charge steady enemies frontally when under attack unders. Something I am wholly unused to with my Moldavians (where the HK is Irreg A and the other stuff is lights so anything heavy they _can_ charge they can charge without prompting).
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Ah, well, they don't really fit the barbarian mode. At least not IMO. At least, not as close order.
| Quote: |
| I don't know much about Araucanians, not even sure I can reliably pronounce it. The possiblility of Irreg B and especially Irreg A troops is appealing (though the Irish have that option as well). I am sure from your described experience they are a good army and I'll take a look and see if the allure of Irreg A/B foot is sufficient to overcome the idea of a bunch of bow-shooters. |
Against some opponenets, the bows are more of a threat than anything else. Your going to be outscouted in most cases, which means that your opponenet will try and line up against the "weak" links in the list, namely any LMI you choose to take. Its been awhile since I've run the numbers on it, but IIRC against most mounted opponents who do charge you, over the course of the bound, can get up to three shots with B, as opposed to just up to two with sling.
Of course, after running this list for a year plus, I changed tack (to Berbers), only to get beaten recently by an all foot (well, 1 Chariot) Han Army...
Todd
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John Murphy
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Todd Schneider wrote: |
| I agree, but then I think what most smart players would do is stay 121 paces away with a couple of mounted units, and charge. If the Incans are in Skirmish, they have to run away, and therefore aren't really influencing that particular part of the battle to much. If they aren;t in skirmish, they take a waver, and one of the reasons that attracted me to Aracanians is that as close order, they will take fewer wavers. |
When I have run SHK maybe this is somewhat viable but it is like French knights at Agincourt charging English longbows which, oh, by the way have LTS! If the Incas do not fail the waver man you are getting a real expensive knight unit chewed up and spat out ptoooie!
When I have faced them with HK this gets even uglier.
What I expect does work, although I have not been able to put it into use yet, is the (obvious I guess) combo of dismounted knights (or Tartars) with a mounted lancer unit. Hit with the dismounts first and just survive to stick. Then whammo with the lancers when the slingers can't support shoot. Very difficult for the Incas to avoid the close foot by skirmishing without making themselves toast to the mounted. Or so the theory goes.
Let's just say some thought has been put into my beating Incas over the past couple years...
But if you are reduced to having to do stuff like this (especially as mentally challenged as I am) to get an acceptable combat I'd say you are not in the greatest of matchups or you missed buying that unit of Moogs in your army.
I'll look at the Arcadians and see if they pass muster as hairy barbarian foot (okay to have a few regs, like Aztecs, as long as you can get the human-sacrificng blood-drinking moon-howlers to go with them)
And yes, I also looked at Late Feudal Japanese but as Tim said they are also kind of taken now by another local. As yet nobody I know in NoVa is doing much with the Irish or Vikings (or Aztecs or Arcadians) though, at least in recent times. |
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John Murphy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: |
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A first cut trial list to throw out for discussion before I go looking more in depth at the Boran Norse-Irish.
And the wise men of the forum haven't had a list to rip apart in some time...
Araucanians (might even learn how to say this)
1597 points
1x4E IrrB LMI
1/4 CinC LTS,B,Sh (PA) @125 =170
3/4 Araucanian Bodyguards LTS,B,Sh @15
1x4E IrrB LMI
1/4 Sub-general LTS,B,Sh (P) @65 =110
3/4 Araucanian Bodyguards LTS,B,Sh @15
4x2E Araucanian Warriors
1/2 IrrB LMI 2HCW,B,Sh @15 =52
1/2 IrrC JLS,B,Sh @12
4x2E Araucanian Warriors
1/2 IrrB LMI HTW,B,Sh @15 =52
1/2 IrrC JLS,B,Sh @12
4x6E Araucanian Runners IrrB LI
1/2 JLS,Sh @8 =67
1/2 JLS @6
1x2E IrrB LMI
1/2 Tribal Ally-general JLS,B,Sh (P) @90 =105
1/2 Tribal Veterans JLS,B,Sh @15
3x6E Tribal Warriors IrrC LMI
1/2 2HCW,S,Sh @12 =88
1/2 JLS,B @9
3x6E Tribal Warriors IrrC LMI
1/2 HTW,S,Sh @12 =88
1/2 JLS,B @9
The Araucanian Runners are the skirmish line and with the combo of JLS,Sh and Irreg-B should do a decent job against either enemy LC or LI. They can serve a screen behind which the LMI can work.
The larger units of Tribal Warriors under the command of the Tribal Ally-general, and to a lesser extent the Araucanian bodyguards, are the line troops. Not realy bad for missile troops (though not great as 3/stand with potential problems skirmishing) but with more HtH offensive stick kick at no real extra cost than most line troops. They can't get LTS or morale upgrades so this is my first cut for the way to go with them.
The non-LTS Araucanians in two commands are the shock counter-punchers or follow-up troops. After toying with some Irreg-A I decided it made the other units less viable so I went with this configuration as a first cut.
This list is, a bit suprisingly, not bad looking to me. Meets hairy-barbarian qualification somewhat (did the Araucanians have human sacrifices and drink their victims blood while howling at the moon though?) and the list notes certainly preclude viewing them as faint-hearted missile troops.
Probably should incorprate some evidence of of lessons learned in some of the other locals armies and make the big units really really big and designed to run 4 or 5 ranks deep against knights? But maybe with the missile capabilities to some extent they can work out like this?
Kind of still graded down on originality since Todd is breaking ground with them but at least he is not a local here. |
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Todd Schneider
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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John,
I have a different philosophy for running them.
Heres the last version of the list I ran. You have to take the General as mounted in the Late Period, although converting this to an early period should be no problem
CinC Irr B HC JLS, Sh @ 160
4 x 4E Irr B LMI 1/2 HTW, B, Sh; 1/2 JLS, B, Sh
4 x 4E Reg C MI LTS, B, Sh @ 90 each
2 x 6E Irr C MI LTS, B, Sh @ 121 each
4E MI 1/2 2HCW, B, Sh; 1/2 JLS, B, Sh
3 x 6E Irr B LI 1/2 B, Sh; 1/2B
3 x 4E Irr B LI JLS, Sh
17 Scouting points.
This list is all about Probe, splitting fire, shooting the eneky to disorder and getting the free charge. The CinC is there to prompt charges if neccessary, but I have found that careful maneuvering of the LMI between the spear blocks will often let the spear absorb the shot and the LMI get propmted to charge, with the spear following up the next bound if need be.
Another version of the list I ran had fewer spear, and less LI, but a Sub Gen and one more 2HCW close order unit. I would often send the Sub Gen, a HTW LMI unit and a 2HCW unit on a flank march. Didn't work allt he time, but it made for some fun battles
Todd
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