Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Derekcus]

A couple of questions:

Turn one the Swiis lose H T H combat.
Turn two: The 2HCT guys come up and beat their opponents and force them to recoil.
What happens in the H T H the next turn?

Do the 2HCT stay in the front?
Do the P in the second rank still fight at full effect?

Derek

[Frank Gilson]

As these rules have been cleaned up since the release of the Feudal Warrior list book, carefully looking over the replaced section on the Four Horsemen website is recommended.

http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/feudal.htm

That's the link to the Feudal Warrior list book. Not too far down you'll find the replacement text.

Your question is actually a little more complicated.

During a continuous combat ("current combat"), a 2nd rank of Pike fights at full effect behind a rank of 2HCT that performed the permitted replacement earlier in that combat. Note that a 3rd and/or 4th rank of Pike will not contribute fighting figures if the front rank is 2HCT.

While a combat is continuing, that 2HCT element up front, which performed a replacement, will remain in its position. The body needs to rally while steady, or perform an approach, counter, or retirement, in order to swap elements around.

Note that a Swiss infantry body could expand rear elements out in a follow up move. However, if 2HCT ends up in front of Pike in that case, the Pike does not fight behind the 2HCT as the 2HCT element did not perform a replacement of a front rank Pike element.

However, if steady, expanded 2HCT can fight in 1.5 ranks...that's a reason to experiment with running six element Swiss units (4 of P, 2 of 2HCT.)

So, Derek, yes and yes ...the 2HCT remains up front, and the element of Pike just behind it fights with four figures, because that 2HCT element was a replacing sort. The whole body 'may' now be disordered and count shieldless (because it's the bound AFTER replacement, and you said the Swiss had earlier lost.)

[AntiokosIII]

--rant begins--
It simply must be said; the new <MAGIC SWISS> and <MAGIC ROMAN>
rules make my teeth itch and my kneecaps wobble. They may very well model the behavior of Swiss and Roman troops more accurately than before, and lord knows the Romans in particular were far too weak, given the historical performance of their infantry. But when is disorder not disorder? When is the state of a front rank different from the state of the rest of the unit? When the troops are <MAGIC ROMANS>, that's when. I realise that I have no right to criticise the Horsemen; I haven't come up with anything better, and I certainly am free to play some other rules, and heavens above, Warrior is the best Ancients set in existence, so why would I? It's just annoying to have <MAGIC> troops around as exceptions to every rule.
--end rant--

[Frank Gilson]

What Magic Troops?

Previously, earlier Roman legionaries and Swiss were worse than utterly useless...a complete joke not able to be modeled by the basic rules.

They did not perform anywhere near appropriately in historical context.

So, lots of playtesting latter, a great deal of thought, and we have list rules that better permit these troops to achieve historical results on the tabletop.

And believe me...they're not magical...Both Romans and Swiss are still expensive infantry that takes up relatively little space on the battlefield. Swiss are very vulnerable to shooting. Elephants tend to do very well against legionaries...as does combining mounted lancers with decent infantry.

It's great to see troops like these able to be played.

[AntiokosIII]

Frank, you're right on every point. Romans needed to be better, Swiss needed to be better, and they are better. The result , the way they now play, is just fine. They certainly are not invulnerable or anything (as proved last week when my Seleukids smashed an EIR army).
I just dislike having special rules that are THIS special, that make huge exceoptions to very basic rules. In effect, Roman armies play the game to a different set of rules, which I find annoying. I admit it's a lot less annoying than the old broken useless Romans, amd I admit the rules give a greatly improved result. So what am I whining about? It's just so......inelegant. Warrior is such a lovely, elegant thing of beauty that to have these rules sorta stuck on with spit and bailing wire mars the whole effect.
OTOH, I am quick to reiterate that if the worst thing you can say about Warrior is that the Romans only work with a bit of special pleading, that's not a very serious flaw. Let's paint, I suppose.