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Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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Tim Grimmett
Legionary
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Northern Virginia
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 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:24 am Post subject: Narrow Frontage Armies |
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Ewan/Mark--
I think it was Ewan who commented on the critical roll of light play in a Swiss army recently.
Having played a similar narrow frontage army at the NICT, my big lesson learned is why bother with anything other than Samurai. Any other unit in the army--LMI in the best terrain or Li was wearing a sign that said hogitimashu, which is Japanese for Kick my a**. One way or the other I'm going to fight on 1/3 of the board--even if it is a horseshoe in my own rear zone.
Provided I can protect my flanks--terrain or board edge--why not field my 8 units and wait for you to bring the fight to me--your best against my best on a narrow front?
Tim
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Tim |
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Mark Stone
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Narrow Frontage Armies |
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| Tim Grimmett wrote: |
Ewan/Mark--
I think it was Ewan who commented on the critical roll of light play in a Swiss army recently.
Having played a similar narrow frontage army at the NICT, my big lesson learned is why bother with anything other than Samurai. Any other unit in the army--LMI in the best terrain or Li was wearing a sign that said hogitimashu, which is Japanese for Kick my a**. One way or the other I'm going to fight on 1/3 of the board--even if it is a horseshoe in my own rear zone.
Provided I can protect my flanks--terrain or board edge--why not field my 8 units and wait for you to bring the fight to me--your best against my best on a narrow front?
Tim |
There's a lot to respond to here, with responses going in several different directions. Let me take a first stab at it, though.
There's very little one can do to prevent an opponent from narrowing the frontage. If my opponent is Japanese, my first pick is going to be a road with the intent of running it 60p in from his rear edge all the way across the table. That blocks any hills and TFs from anchoring the rear-most 180p of his rear zone. I'll follow this with open spaces 120p in front of the road.
Even if I'm successful, however, the Japanese player can set up an angled line that starts at a side edge and ends at the rear edge. I can try a flank march to counter this, but that's a tricky proposition at best. So, while I'm pretty confident in my ability to force the bulk of an opponent's army to deploy in open terrain, I don't think I can really force someone to fight on more frontage than they want to.
There are two possible responses. The first is to put my army under "Wait" orders. I'm surprised people don't do this more often. Nothing requires me to go and fight on a part of the table or in a patch of terrain that I deem disadvantagous. I can put my army under "Wait" and see how my opponent responds. Most people don't want to end up in a 0-0 or 1-1 draw, and recognize they're better off with a 5-3 loss. And that's actually one of the virtues of the Japanese army: sure, it can lose, but it will definitely draw blood going down.
The other response is to have a combined arms attack plan. Again, people don't do enough of this. We spend a lot of time fretting about how a single unit type matches up against another single unit type, when in fact games are seldom decided by these one on one matchups.
I refer people back to my comments about 10 Independent States. No single unit in that entire army matches up very well against Macedonian pikes or Macedonian Hypaspists. But I can put together a pair of units that match up very well against any single unit in a Macedonian army. Once I know that, then it becomes a question of tactics: how can I line up the matchups I want while denying my opponent the matchups he wants?
And if my opponent is going to sit in a narrow defensive position and let me come at him, then he's basically conceding me whatever matchups I want. I'll pick the end unit on the Japanese line, line up the two units I need to combine to take it out, and have a reserve ready to prevent the adjacent Japanese unit from turning on the flank of my attack.
And a great many armies have a pair of units that will fight well against a single Japanese unit. I can see, for example, Ewan sending in an SHC unit first which may not do a CPF but should do more and lock in combat, meaning that on the subsequent bound one or more elephant units can come in without facing support shooting. With my Chinese I can send in a firelancer unit followed by one or more elephant units. A knight army could send in a dismounted knight unit followed next bound by one or more mounted knight units. Or simply line the knights up boot to boot (Jon did this very well in the NICT) and ride in.
So that's what I really see as the main problem with a narrow frontage defensive position. You concede to your opponent the ability to set up whatever attack he wants, wherever he wants it. And no army in Warrior is so good that its entire battle line is impervious to the combined arms tactics available on most above average armies.
No, success with Japanese and other counter-punching armies lies in finding the right battle field conditions and the right moment to move to the attack and have some forward momentum. You must dictate the battle to your opponent somewhere on the field. Waiting for him to come to you is fine up to a point -- I did this routinely with my Chinese -- but you have to have a ready and aggressive response once your opponent has committed himself to a plan of advance.
So being able to counter punch means doing more than sitting in "Fortress Japan" waiting for your opponent to get there. You have to try and cover the central part of the table with rough terrain, and you have to try and make use of that terrain to create a place where you can push the advance. You have to have some maneuver room and some minimal reserves to respond to what your oppoonent does. Otherwise patient combined arms play will simply take you apart.
-Mark Stone |
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Frank Gilson
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1567
Location: Orange County California
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Swiss, etc. |
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Mark begins a wonderful reply here.
In the specific case of the Swiss, why would you want any LI or LC?
They provide a reasonable amount of scouting points, to help you avoid being outscouted, which helps you seize more table space (if you need it) so you can avoid having to 'hang back' as Mark describes.
They enable you to cover almost all the table frontage with a high morale regular unit that can skirmish and evade, giving you fade/delay ability over a wide area while your foot attack.
They also draw shooting away from your otherwise vulnerable to shooting pike. |
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Ewan McNay
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Albany, NY, US
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Mark:
| Quote: |
And if my opponent is going to sit in a narrow defensive position and let me come at him, then he's basically conceding me whatever matchups I want. I'll pick the end unit on the Japanese line, line up the two units I need to combine to take it out, and have a reserve ready to prevent the adjacent Japanese unit from turning on the flank of my attack.
And a great many armies have a pair of units that will fight well against a single Japanese unit. I can see, for example, Ewan sending in an SHC unit first which may not do a CPF... |
Right on both counts (although the SHC should in theory do a CPF; that's not the important issue). If you're fighting as a Samurai-only Japanese army (and I agree it's not a terrible approach), the units that I can pick my matchups against are probably close to 200 points each; killing off one of those and then a second will be almost all I need to do for a max win.
In addition, one of the reasons for playing Japanese (or Swiss) is that you *want* to be pushing all along the frontage that you cover, because you have more strike units than does your opponent, and you need to leverage that. Sitting back and only fighting at a point of your opponent's choosing will, indeed, get his best troops fighting - and you don't want that; you want all of your troops fighting so that some of them are *not* fighting his best.
Frank:
| Quote: |
| In the specific case of the Swiss, why would you want any LI or LC? |
Honestly, I don't think that the reasons Frank gives are valid: the Swiss LI/LC are not good flank guards - because they get blown away to easily unless countering out of range, in which case they are no longer guarding a flank; they cannot absorb fire for very long; and you're often outscouted anyway. Certainly you're often pinned, which is as bad. The LC can't even enter terrain and are in general even worse at absorbing fire.
So as a Swiss player, do I want light troops? I probably do want a couple of 2E Reg B LI units just to delay on one flank; that may well be it. Other than that, I want to be getting my pikes into combat. I suppose that I might take one or two more LI units to take the missile fire for the bound before contact, but probably not - I expect not to be disordered unless I am too passive and allow my opponent to set up overlapping fire, and if I need to take a waver test to charge in then OK.
Part of this is that I just still do not see the Swiss as viable, of course  . |
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Kelly Wilkinson
Dictator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4172
Location: Raytown, MO
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: Narrow Frontage Battles |
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As a Camillan Roman Player, I say, "Bring on the narrow frontage!" That only allows me to take advantage of my "MILLION MAN ARMY" of Mi Romans who can fight in two lines and kick the crap out of Japs or knights, in the second bound if not the first. At Historicon, I faced off with David Brauer's Japs and did this very thing with a 5-2 result. Additionally, I placed all my flaming porcine friends on my left to entice an Itallian condotta player (SEAN) to attack my seemingly poor little LTS armed Princepes on my right flank. The result was Romans replacing their buddies and lots of dead Itallian great, great grandkids. As the Roman player, I'm all for the head to head fight. That's where the GLORY and the big points are, baby!
Kelly |
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Kelly Wilkinson
Dictator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4172
Location: Raytown, MO
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: Narrow Frontage Battles |
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As a Camillan Roman Player, I say, "Bring on the narrow frontage!" That only allows me to take advantage of my "MILLION MAN ARMY" of Mi Romans who can fight in two lines and kick the crap out of Japs or knights, in the second bound if not the first. At Historicon, I faced off with David Brauer's Japs and did this very thing with a 5-2 result. Additionally, I placed all my flaming porcine friends on my left to entice an Itallian condotta player (SEAN) to attack my seemingly poor little LTS armed Princepes on my right flank. The result was Romans replacing their buddies and lots of dead Itallian great, great grandkids. As the Roman player, I'm all for the head to head fight. That's where the GLORY and the big points are, baby!
Kelly |
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Frank Gilson
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1567
Location: Orange County California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: Swiss skirmishers and Samurai |
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I was perhaps not clear enough to specify the exact purpose of Swiss light troops, and Ewan rightly states that they can't hold an area for very long...
Unless, it is in a strategic sense...or the tactical case of holding a difficult terrain feature.
Cheap, small Swiss light units can thus keep an enemy from quickly advancing through a wood or steep hill.
The other main purpose of little Swiss LI units is to draw missile fire away from Swiss infantry, which should NOT be in huge blocks...someone care to answer why?
As for Samurai, a curved or terrain feature anchored series of units is a good frontage...but there should be a flexible reserve of two element foot Samurai units that can attack through gaps on the flanks of enemy who engage the main line units. |
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Kelly Wilkinson
Dictator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4172
Location: Raytown, MO
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: narrow frontage battles |
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Frank,
Could you shoot me your email. I need to ask you a couple of questions concerning the Phyrric list. My school email is
kwilkinson@center.k12.mo.us
I really could use your expert knowledge about a few things concerning this list.
Kelly |
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OGS-Vintage
Recruit
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Tournament Play |
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I applied a simple scoring system of 1 point per unit lost or destroyed and 0.5 per LI (not LC) - and the scoring in other areas was a 1,2,3,4 stopped players choosing a middle ground (though some still wrote 2.5 etc).
My scoring system was as follows (score 1,2,3,4)
gentleman player (did your opponent conduct himself in a gentlemanly fashion)
Historically accurate (was your opponents army historically accurate - discuss) - stopped the power gamers
Able Commander (did ytour opponent prove himself to be an able commander)
units lost (either 1 or 0.5 per unit)
units destroyed (in rout or off table counts as well - 1 or 0.5)
overall winner had the highest score plus trophies in each category - needless to say the gentleman player was the most coveted
and funnily enough ti put a stop to power gamers |
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Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: narrow frontage |
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Yo
What is the difference between "lost units" and destroyed units"
Ed Kollmer |
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