Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[scott holder]

Along with this post is a file of barbarian foot theme/list rules we're examining for use not just for next year's Hcon theme but possibly for wider inclusion in Warrior, most likely as list rules.

I would like any commentary to be *after* you've played some of these.

scott

[Tim Grimmett]

Scott--

For the purposes of these Theme rules, is "barbarian foot" defined as any irregular foot unit? Is there a geographic limitation? For example, are irreg Meso-American, Japanese, and Chinese considered "barbarian"?

Tim

[scott holder]

For right now, any Irr foot unit.

scott

[Adrian Williams]

i like it!

[Siward]

WhoooHooooooo....here come the Saxons


Cheers.......Geoff

[jamiepwhite]

I cut and pasted the rules from the .doc file, I had a little trouble with it as I don't have word on my computer at home. Posting the rules as an additional .txt file would be nice in the future for those of us too pigheaded to load word on all our computers.

I've seen some of these rules in use a little in two games, one Japanese calvary army against a late roman calvary army and in a Steve's gym game.

Movement:
1) Irr Loose march 3 segments (instead of 2) - Saw the Japanese foot marching on three instead of two march bounds, so they were quicker to get to the center line. To me the effect of this rule is convenient for the barbarian foot player as it helps the army deploy at a reasonable speed.
2) Loose/Open force march for only 1 FP (instead of 2) - Didn't see this one being used in either game so no comment. Would seem a little lopsided in use, a unit of ID MI B can force march for 1 fatigue but RD MI B has to play two fatigues.

Combat Related:
1) Counter-charge vs. enemy foot may be impetuous - Didn't see this one in use as all the irregular foot in use was LMI.
2) +1 for each pair of elements over 8 in a body in HTH if charging, counter-charging, pursuing or following up - Saw this one in use a lot, made barbarian foot charges by 12 element units a lot more competitive. I usually play against barbarian foot armies but I like this rule for charges and countercharges, but I think I would drop the following up and pursuing bonus. Need additional clarification on who qualifies, seems silly to be giving this bonus equally to ID MI B, ID LI B, or IB LEHI 2HCT B. Adding a qualifier such as only applies to loose or close foot equipped with melee weapon (1HCW, JLS, 2HCW, 2HCT, HTW, LTS, P, or 2 SA) and morale grade D or above (no IE troops).
3) 3rd and 4th ranks of troops eligible to fight count 1/3 figures if charging, counter-charging, pursuing or following up - Didn't see this one in use so no comments
4) Only 1 FP per CPF in first round of HTH - I'm ambivalent about this one, I can see the intent is to help the durability of irregular foot in combat. I think my main objection is that this should be helping a foot unit that is taking reasonable losses in combat, but shouldn't apply after a limit is reached. So I would go for a rebate rule of some kind, along of the lines of a unit that got the +1 or +2 for barbarian foot charges doesn't have the first (ten elements) or second (12 elements) casualty per figure fatigue doubled in the first round of combat. So a big unit in combat would be helped but a 6 man unit of naked berserkers charging a steady unit of legionaires would still be properly fatigued into exhaustion.

Morale:
1) Bodies are eager while any friendly body within [240] [160] [120] paces can be seen to be in combat but not shaken/broken friends - Didn't see this rule in use.
2) Bodies test for seeing routers only if they are of the same nationality [and not of a lower morale grade] - Didn't see this one in use
3) Bodies do not test for seeing a general in line of command killed; rather, they are eager in the subsequent round of HTH combat [does not apply if general is only routed or wounded and carried off the field] - Didn't see this one in use

Thanks,

Jamie White

[jamiepwhite]

Deleted to cut down on posting errors

Jamie White

[jamiepwhite]

I deleted this post to cut down on posting errors.

Thanks,

Jamie

[Dennis Shorthouse]

Scott,

under COMBAT RELATED: 3rd & 4th ranks eligible to fight count 1/3 figs
if..........

would a 3 wide by 4 deep unit of MI Galatians/Saxons etc
get 1/3 of the 3rd & 4th ranks ie 1/3 x 8 figs = 3 rounded up?

thanks, Dennis

[Dennis Shorthouse]

Scott,

under COMBAT RELATED: 3rd & 4th ranks eligible to fight count 1/3 figs
if..........

would a 3 wide by 4 deep unit of MI Galatians/Saxons etc
get 1/3 of the 3rd & 4th ranks ie 1/3 x 8 figs = 3 rounded up?

thanks, Dennis

[scott holder]

Dennis: See above.

Jamie: Thanks!

scott

[scott holder]

Only 1 FP per CPF in first round of HTH - I'm ambivalent about this one, I can see the intent is to help the durability of irregular foot in combat. I think my main objection is that this should be helping a foot unit that is taking reasonable losses in combat, but shouldn't apply after a limit is reached. So I would go for a rebate rule of some kind, along of the lines of a unit that got the +1 or +2 for barbarian foot charges doesn't have the first (ten elements) or second (12 elements) casualty per figure fatigue doubled in the first round of combat. So a big unit in combat would be helped but a 6 man unit of naked berserkers charging a steady unit of legionaires would still be properly fatigued into exhaustion.

Jamie: Could you elaborate on this one a bit? I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

scott

[jamiepwhite]

Sure, let me make a table of fatigues taken for a few conditions. Basically, if you are getting a plus in combat for being large (10 or 12 elements), then 1 or 2 cpf do not have their fatigue doubled for that bound. So here's a quick chart

1 CPF taken 2 CPF taken 3 or more CF taken
9 elements 2 fatigue 4 fatigue 6 or more fatigue
10 or 11 1 fatigue 3 fatigue 5 or more
12 1 fatigue 2 fatigue 4 or more

Jamie

[Siward]

I played a game this weekend using Scots Isles vs Marian Roman. After viewing the proposed rules we decided to go with just these two;

2) [color=red]+1 for each pair of elements over 8 in a body in HTH if charging, counter-charging, pursuing or following up
4) Only 1 FP per CPF in first round of HTH [/color]

It was a great game. I rolled more than my share of plusses but came unstuck when my C in C with the army standard died .
From a situation where close formation barbarian foot ( not armed with HTW ) had virtually no chance front on against legionaries, the above two changes put them right back in the frame. Even without luck the Barbarians are a big show - it all comes unstuck once the Barbarians lose momentum which is as it should be.
I think it would be great for the - Only 1 FP per CPF in first round of HTH - to be universally applied to all irregulars. The - +1 for each pair of elements over 8 in a body in HTH if charging, counter-charging, pursuing or following up - would be best reserved for true warband style armies.


Cheers....................Geoff

[scott holder]

Interesting. Thanks for the feedback. It appears that some selectivity will need to go into this but for now, everybody, go with the broad brush approach and tell us what you think.

Thanks again, this is really helpful.

scott