Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[browntj007]

Jon,

After searching the archives, I read that:

A charge still counts as declared on all units within charge range and charge path, even if the charger chooses to contact only one, since echeloning is always optional. Nothing cancels the charge so all units within must respond, correct? You could have the situation where you charge one unit which stands and another which counter charges you, assuming everything fits. Is this still your intent in 2006? Archives dated 2004.

Tim Brown

[joncleaves]

If a charger could reach an enemy body using an echelon - given that the echeloning elements cannot go further than the permissible charge move - then yes, such an enemy body can respond to the charge and must take any applicable waver test, even if the enemy body is not reached by the charger after all is said and done.
Yes, you could have the situation where one enemy body stands and another countercharges.

Jon

[Brown007]

Jon,

If a unit wishes to contact both units in this situation, does he need to declare such an action ( the targets) in his charge declaration? Looking at this as an Ump, personally I wouldn't want to give more advantage to the charger than he already has - the ability to declare the charge and then choose not to make contact. Should I expect the charge to be written similiar to:

" Unit X charges impetiously both the HI and LC by echeloning "

The targets are clearly identified and the intent given. Otherwise...I can see the situation where the players say..""oh...you're not echeloning, then I'm going to do this instead..." followed by..." Then I will echelon", etc, etc. I just think this all needs to be clear. Here's a good example:

A Gaul LMI unit is 40 paces away from a Roman HI unit, 120 paces from another HI unit 80 paces off to the right further back from the first. The Gauls can charge both by echeloning out to their full 120 paces. Both Roman units must respond. The closet Roman unit had declared a charge, and that isn't cancelled. Prorating it, the Romans move 15 paces, the gauls 25 paces. Here's where it gets tricky. That second Roman unit had to respond too- which it does by countercharging - however - now it is 95 paces away if the gauls suddenly decide not to echelon. The rules already state the units don't have to be within their own charge range to countercharge, but this exceeds the HI tactical move. What happens?

Also, do I measure from the gun barrel or the base - oh what a sec - that's a different game!

Tim

[joncleaves]

Maybe I was misleading. The other HI is not in charge reach *unless* the gaul echelons. So, he would have to say he is going to do it before the roman can say i am going to countercharge. Doimng it formally when you write down your charge is a good idea. Either way, once you have said you are going to echelon, there is no going back and changing your mind.

From the base, man! Measuring from the gun barrel will get you killed out here....

J

[browntj007]

Jon,

I'm hoping you see this reply written so long after the initial post.

Given recent posts, that in a multiple target situation with an echelon possibility; echeloning is always optional, but regardless, the targets must respond ( the ignorant man on the ground concept) to the charge - since they don't know that the charger will stop charging and just contact the first unit, then how does the above second Roman unit to the rear actually work?

He would take a waver test if mounted vs loose foot for example, but can't respond to that very charge unless the Gauls decide to echelon forward?

Can the second Roman unit support shoot the charger if he had that capability if the Gauls choose not to echelon? The Romans don't know that the Gauls won't continue forward - they just know they've been charged.

If the Roman is stuck unable to do anything...

It would seem that the effects of a charge are being placed on the target without the target having all options to do anything about it. If I had to take a waver check I should be able to respond - indeed I believe I must respond. Take a LMI Bow unit in skirmish offset from another unit. If both are charged by mounted, that bow unit is taking a waver and evading since nothing stops the charge, regardless of distance as long as the charger was in range at declaration. This happens even if the mounted unit stops its charge and doesn't echelon.

In the above example that second Roman unit should have the ability to respond by countercharging. The unit on the ground doesn't know that the enemy won't echelon, so when it sees an enemy charging towards it, it doesn't know that it can't reach, either. Yet...that tactical move limit again.

What to do. Aren't you glad you introduced these fancy Roman rules?

Tim Brown

[joncleaves]

I am very happy with the Roman rules. What i should have done was enlist you as a playtester so that you could have done the destructive thing in a constructive way...

I am not being wise when I say I do not see the actual question in your post. Can the Roman unit respond to the charge even though he does not know if the Gaul will echelon? Yes. Is that what you were asking?

[Ambrose Coddington]

Maybe you should ask us horrible people to playtest rules.
I love finding these things. (I actually do. Sad I guess)

If we can iron them out before hand then all the better.

[joncleaves]

Dude, where were you when the paper was blank? Its a little late to playtest a game that is already published....

However, we could use some help with the proposed list rules we are working on for early armies.

[Frank Gilson]

Jon,

Tim raises various issues here, but does have one clear question.

Can the farther back Roman unit actually counter charge if such a counter charge would take it farther than its tactical move distance? It does count as having the barbarian charge made against it, and is permitted charge responses, which do include counter charge.

[joncleaves]

If i understand the example Tim is using, the second Roman cannot countercharge unless the Samurai chooses to echelon. If the samurai does not choose to echelon, then the Roman unit is not in the samurai unit's charge reach and is not charged. If it is not charged, it cannot respond.
In other words, if the samurai can and chooses to echelon and puts the Roman in charge reach (normally measured to the first point of contact), then the Roman unit is eligible to respond.

Tim, if you want to post those examples you sent to me in PM's, it might help the discussion - I am not really into private rules questions answering just for this reason.

[Mark Stone]

[joncleaves]

Sorry if there was a poorly worded answer earlier. I see it about 4-5 posts back and see where the confusion comes from - I was answering two questions at once. Let me try and clarify.

Enemy bodies out of charge reach do not respond.
Charge reach extends out to contact.

If the charger - who is eligible to make a legal echelon move to contact Unit B after contacting Unit A - chooses not to, then B is not in charge reach and cannot/must not respond.

If the charger chooses to echelon to reach B then B is now in charge reach and must/can respond.

There is no "mystery" or "surprise" here. The charger cannot "hold" the option to echelon until he sees the results of some potential but not yet caused response. He says "I am echeloning" (or not) and the body that can be contacted by the echelon responds (or not).

Said another way, the echelon option must be stated to be in effect to establish charge reach to the second body.

[Frank Gilson]

Ok, this does clarify things a great deal...

However, the decision to echelon, or not to echelon, would appear to have to be made 'during' the middle of a charge move, and not possible during charge declaration. Correct?

This occurs because your won't have to echelon if enemy units do one set of things, but would have to echelon if they did other sets of things, all unknown and unknowable during charge declaration.

Frank

[joncleaves]

As it is an option, it actually can be done either as part of the declaration - which you *can*, but I would not generally do - or as part of establishing charge reach as you came down the line of charges.

What's important is that it is before charge responses. Step b under 6.16 on the top left of page 41.

Now, if the situation changes due to evades or countercharges, then there might be additional opportunities to echelon that did not exist at steb b and this process might be repeated then - just as it has for charge responses for distant targets beyond an evader.

[browntj007]

THANKS JON!

Okay...being the crafty Roman player....just to make sure...


I have the same situation of 1 Roman unit slightly offset from another, which if the nasty Jap wants to charge both, would require an echelon BEFORE I need respond. The unwary Jap decides to do so. ( At this point the optional choice has been made) The Romans decide to stand with the farthest one and countercharge with the nearest, thus widening the distance and creating a potential disorder. No additional optional echelon opportunites exist or have been created once I responded. Totally legal in theory as long as the distances involved/ rules regarding echeloning are met, correct?

Tim