Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Todd Schneider]

To quote:

[Ewan McNay]

If there was one thing that I think Dennis may have had correct, it was that SHK are too expensive in this army and a distraction. I would guess that a focus on the foot, but with a lot of medium-sized blocks, is the way to go. I'll try to give it a hack.

[Todd Schneider]

Maybe just take the Lorrainer Ally as the Knight's, and use the remaainder for more Pike Blocks?

BTW, nice writeup again on the NICT lists.

Todd

[scott holder]

This reminds me of something "back in the day" when we played TOG. Jake usta purchase allies with his Hussites. We would then promptlly ignore the wagon laagers and leisurely spend out time beating up on 6-800 points of stuff with 1600.

The Swiss knights could fall into that same trap.

That being said, this list takes a "Roman" approach with the Swiss with the swarms of little units. An interesting approach but one that will need real skill to make work. Then the Swiss knights could serve a very useful function but this is Warrior at it's most exacting since one mistake in terms of movement could absolutely kill you.

Most of us need armies that are much more forgiving.

Since we're pounding on Dennis' Swiss list, assume it remains the way it is. Another approach could be to modify it's deployment and terrain placement in such a way as to maximize the chance for the killer infantry blocks to contact things. For some players (like me), that might be easier than trying to master the art of running all those leeetle units.

scott

[Todd Schneider]

Scott,

What would you select as Terrain choices then?

Something that lets you restrict the frontage your fighting on?

Todd

[Frank Gilson]

If you ran any knights, you would want to run them as a reserve, not a leading attack wing.

As such, they could certainly be 1/2 HC. For some purposes, entirely HC are sufficient (flank charges that will not then be opposed, or many frontal charges against foot disordered by Swiss foot.)

As for the Swiss foot...you want two types of units, basically. Those designed to receive enemy mounted at a halt (in which case they don't need to have 3 or 4 ranks of pike) and those designed to get full combat effect from their charge against enemy infantry (in which case they need 4 ranks of pike.) So, use a mix of 3 element units and 6 element units.

I say six element units so that you end up with 4 ranks of pike and 2 ranks of 2HCT. Recall the fact that two ranks of steady 2HCT (after an expansion, say) can fight (2nd rank at half figures.)

The LI and LC should be in a bunch of small units. Some of them force march so you don't anywhere get pinned by enemy force marched lights. Generally, your small units will counter back or to the side to avoide charges and shooting. One of their important functions is to draw shooting away from your shieldless pike blocks until your pike can get off a charge. This means you need a bunch of these little skirmisher units, something that is not what we see on many other armies.

Let's say you decided to use no SHK or HC (which may or may not be good, depends on your matchups and would require playtesting.) Your list given my statements above would look like:
CinC separate on staff element
Ally separate on staff element
5 three element units of Swiss LHI/LMI/LMI P/P/2HCT (front rank Reg A)
4 six element units of Swiss LHI/LMI/LMI/LMI/LHI/LMI Px4/2HCTx2 (the two LHI elements, one pike, one 2HCT, are Reg A)
1 six element unit of Swiss LHI/LMIx5 Px4/2HCTx2 (LHI P is Reg A)
2 units of two elements Reg B LC CB
10 units of two elements Reg B LI CB
22 units, 2 bodies, 2 commands, 22 scouting

If you need to receive charges, you do so with the 3 element Swiss foot units. You initiate charges with the 6 element units. "Extra" 3 element units can do follow up or flank charges on engaged enemy. You have 10 combat capable units which is in excess of many armies. What you don't have is much time, given your small light units and vulnerability to shooting. Constrain the frontage heavily and engage quickly.

[scott holder]

Frank's list would be hairy to run, not for the squeemish. But if you could master all that foot movement, you'd be a real threat.

Terrain: if you go with the lotsa units approach, carving down the table with terrain could be counterproductive. Of course you could go with the always reliable 1 major water and 3 woods, using the woods to either cut down just enough of the table so you have enough room to move but not so much that you're flanks are swarming, or dump the woods on the opponents side of the table in an attempt to force his strike units more forward faster or into one place where you can either try to hit them or block them off.

I'm with Frank in that if you use any mounted, they've got to be your support troops. Hit and pin with the foot, if you can, follow up with the mounted.

scott

[Todd Schneider]

[Mark Stone]

[Frank Gilson]

Note that I said the small 3 element units perform a dual purpose...receiving a mounted charge, or attacking flanks and overlaps.

They are NOT for long term combat survival, not for charging enemy foot who are also charging. That's the role of the six element units.

Mark works out some detail that is applicable.

As far as terrain, which Scott brings up, you have a couple of choices...
1) Minor Water Feature, Marsh, Marsh, Hill
or
2) Hill, Hill, Hill, Hill

#1 is a general case where you have to cut the frontage down as much as possible because your opponent can and will exploit as much frontage as possible and isn't Mongols (who could remove some of your terrain features.)

#2 is a way to cut down on enemy shooting for your Swiss foot at the tops of hills, you make them all steep or half-steep (facing enemy) hills for the bad terrain benefit. This is for use against enemies where you don't really need to minimize the frontage you fight on, and against Mongols who will remove two of your features.

[Todd Schneider]

[Todd Kaeser]

Don't forget the required HG units - could be LI like the CB.

Todd K

Swiss are very interesting and I believe should be used offensively and aggressively - not defensively as many have used them.

[Mark Stone]

Todd S: you're right, in my example the Swiss should not recoil, making it even worse for the knights.

More general comments:

The big vulnerability for the Swiss is enemy shooting. To mitigate that you'd like to have some quality light troops of your own, preferably shielded LI and/or shielded LC with a missile weapon. In fact no list on which the Swiss make an appearance has shielded LI in any quantity. Only one list has any significant number of LC (Italian Condotta).

So my inclination has always been to play the Swiss on some other list than Swiss, and Italian Condotta strikes me as the best choice.

Another problem that leads to much the same conclusion: you need some mounted reserves in your army to force your opponent to stand and fight. Specifically, loose order foot who would simply evade away from Swiss absent any mounted on the Swiss side can be made to stand and fight, or at least make a successful counter roll, if you have a mounted threat in the vicinity. This works because mounted always approach after foot, and because mounted have a longer tactical move than foot.

Getting a comforable configuration of mounted on the Swiss list itself is difficult, however. You get more flexibility and better options on lists other than Swiss.

So the main options, as I see it:

* Play the Swiss list itself, definitely take some SHK/HC, take enough LI to split fire and soak off shooting, and take a mix of 3 stand and 6 stand pike/halberd blocks. Given the unhappy morale classes of your HC, the need to take ally generals, and the fact that your LI is shieldless, this is not an optimal way to play the Swiss.
* Play Early Burgundians with a Swiss command, and set up the Swiss as a reserve behind a wall of shooting (big blocks of shielded CB/LB, some with stakes). No LC in this approach, and no real LI. You're also still stuck with at least one C class cav unit. And you necessarily operate from a defensive position. On the plus side, you can definitely protect the Swiss from shooting, and you don't have to worry about covering enough frontage.
* Play one of the German lists with a Swiss command, and set up the Swiss as a reserve behind a wall of cheap but durable close order foot. This is not a bad approach, it's just slow and ponderous. Feels a bit like the Medieval equivalent of Alexandrian Macedonian (not Alexandrian Imperial).
* Play Italian Condotta, late period Venetians in Italy. You get some LC (some crossbow guys and some Turks), and you get some LI that though shieldless, is at least regular. You get good quality knights, and some nice loose order foot (LHI CB,2HCT). All of this makes a pretty good supporting cast for your Swiss command. Problems are: you still don't hold a huge amount of frontage, and your light troops can't be really aggressive, as the LC doesn't fight in a rank and a half, and the LI lacks shields.

Of all those choices I like the Italian Condotta option best, but this is very much dependent on personal playing style. Your mileage may vary.


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

[Ewan McNay]

Scott