Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ambrose Coddington]

Does a charger contact a defended obstacle before it contacts the target?

Thanks

Ambrose

[joncleaves]

That depends on which type it is - see 9.5.

[Ambrose Coddington]

Tethered animals specifically.
9.5 does not explicitly say that a charging body contacts the obstacle before the target. It seems to be implied but I am not sure that I am reading it correctly.

Thanks

[joncleaves]

Tethered animals are contacted when the charger enters combat. But it is effectively at the same time as they contact the defender, so I am not sure why you'd need to know this. I would prefer an explanation of the issue so I could make sure I am answering the actual question you are asking and there is no misunerstanding.

[Ambrose Coddington]

Grin.
Good question.
OK here is the next step in the question:

12.342 B TF are obstacles that effect movement in the same manner as natural obstacles. That is:

bullet 4 sub 2

Troops must stop movement when until next bound if they:
Reach an obstacle within a very rough area.

Given this, if a body is defending a portable obstacle in a very rough area can an enemy legally declare a charge.
My reading of this leads me to believe that if the charging body contacts the obstacle first they can not make contact and thus the charge is illegal.
If the charging body reaches contact at the same time it reaches the obstacle then there is no issue.

One further note:
What happens if the obstacle is not defended? Assume that the charge target is 1 pace away from the obstacle. Can they have a charge declared on them as the charging body must stop movement until the next bound when it reaches the obstacle?

The thought here is that if you place an obstacle in a wood or other very rough area (marsh ect.) and retire the unit away from the portable obstacle 1 pace (Or if the charging body contacts the obstacle before contacting the target, 0 paces) as the rules are written now they can not have a legal charge declared on them.

Thanks

[joncleaves]

First, Tethered animals are a portable obstacle and not a TF, so quoting 12.342 is incorrect.

What you probably meant to say is that 12.3 says:

"Troops must stop movement if they:
• Contact a Very Rough or Rough Area or
Obstacle after exceeding permissible Very
Rough or Rough Area move distance for
that segment or tactical move.
• Contact an Obstacle within a Very Rough
Area.
• Contact a second Obstacle."

And the second bullet of that does indeed say that you must stop movement if you reach an obstacle in a very rough area.

Now, if the PO is defended, this doesn't matter as the obstacle edge is where the charge would stop no matter what terrain it is in.

If it is not defended - say this 1p behind it thing, well it is true that the enemy could not charge you across it in a wood because he would have to stop. But since he would then be the one defending it - and could even pick it up in the next bound - that would be weird.

[Ambrose Coddington]

The question I have regarding the above comment is this:
Can you declare a charge to get closer then 40 paces even though you can not reach contact?

This is really the meat of the question I have.

To charge in this situation you must be at 40 paces. You go 39 paces and halt.
Can you declare a charge in this situation?
I assumed that since you can not make contact, (No option here, you are halted before contact) you can not declare a charge. Thus you can not approach closer then 40 paces.

In other words the two units would simply sit in the wood with 40 paces between them with an obstacle of some sort also between them and neither of the units would be able to declare a charge.

Perhaps I am interpreting this incorrectly but it appears to me that that is what the rules say happen here.

Thanks

[joncleaves]

Portable obstacles have to be 40p deep - so this situation never comes up.

[Ambrose Coddington]

Obstacles being 40 paces deep raises some interesting questions.

First let me say that I mean nor intend any offence.
I am trying to get this situation clear in my head (Before a tournament I might add. Not during one.) for two reasons. One so I understand it and two so that Scot can rule on this correctly.
(And truth be told, the third reason is that I intended to exploit the rules as written)

I hope you can see where I am confused by this.

If obstacles are 40 paces deep and you charge the unit behind them do you measure to the obstacle? Or does the obstacle cease to exist in the 40 paces it occupied in the previous game phase so that the charger counts as contacting the obstacle when it makes contact with the defending unit?

In woods a unit can see 40 paces. A unit approaches to 40 paces. There is an obstacle between the two units. If the "Defending" unit were to charge does the unit that is touching the obstacle and being charged get the defending bonus?

In woods does the approaching unit stop 40 paces from the obstacle and is the obstacle an eligible charge target? If this is the case the defending unit never "sees" the enemy and the enemy may charge making contact with the obstacle and by extension the defending unit.

Does the obstacle that occupies the 40 paces in front of the unit cause disorder from the space it occupies (assuming tethered camels here)? Or does it cease to exist when you measure the distance for cause of disorder and you measure from the front of the defending unit?

Does the obstacle, being 40 paces deep, cause disorder from its edges when it is no longer defended? In effect extending the cause of disorder 40 paces all of a sudden when the deploying unit counters away or retires?

If an obstacle exists at the front edge of the unit when it is defended, how does it extend 40 paces when it is no longer defended?

Why can't an enemy unit that approaches to 40 paces pick up the defended obstacle? It is touching it.

I could go on. But it is getting late and I am tired and want to go home from work.

Please think a bit on this Jon and don't answer too quickly.


P.S.

One last question. I looked carefully through the rules but seem to have missed where an obstacle's size is defined. This may just be me working too many hours today or might be something that was missed.

Thanks again.

[joncleaves]

<<First let me say that I mean nor intend any offence. >>

I am never offended by a rules question.

<<(And truth be told, the third reason is that I intended to exploit the rules as written) >>

That does offend me, but has nothing to do with me answering rules questions.

<<If obstacles are 40 paces deep and you charge the unit behind them do you measure to the obstacle?>>

To the obstacle, if it is defended.

<<In woods a unit can see 40 paces. A unit approaches to 40 paces. There is an obstacle between the two units.>>

The obstacle is essentially the charge target the way you are asking these questions.

<< If the "Defending" unit were to charge does the unit that is touching the obstacle and being charged get the defending bonus? >>

If a body is defending an obstacle and an enemy contacts the obstacle, the defender gets the bonus and the attacker does not. If the defender charges across his own obstacle, he is not the defender of it, but neither would the enemy be because he would not be in contact with it. If he were in contact with it, the two bodies would already be in hand to hand.

<<In woods does the approaching unit stop 40 paces from the obstacle and is the obstacle an eligible charge target?>>

Yep.

<< If this is the case the defending unit never "sees" the enemy and the enemy may charge making contact with the obstacle and by extension the defending unit. >>

Yes. The "sees the enemy" part is not important because a body defending the obstacle is essentially where the obstacle is too.

<<Does the obstacle that occupies the 40 paces in front of the unit cause disorder from the space it occupies (assuming tethered camels here)?>>

See 9.5. If it is just there and not defended, it causes disorder to whatever troop types are disordered by obstacles - which I will point out does NOT include loose order foot and never has.

<<Why can't an enemy unit that approaches to 40 paces pick up the defended obstacle? It is touching it. >>

A body that is originally enemy to a PO finding itself alone in contact with that PO may indeed pick it up. But not if it is defended.

<<One last question. I looked carefully through the rules but seem to have missed where an obstacle's size is defined. This may just be me working too many hours today or might be something that was missed. >>

17.1, page 135.

Ambrose, I would tell you that the intent of the rules for placing a PO in woods is that the woods do not change the nature of a defended PO in any way. The body with it may get cover and the obstacle may be harder to see, but all it really is is a game-slowing object of who wants to fight that - same as any well-defended obstacle/TF. If I find, which I have not yet, that some textual screw-up in the rules has POs getting uber-powered in woods, I will fix it. If you find it and I don't and you keep it a secret, a) shame on you and b) I will fix it when you use it.
You are very much doing the right thing by doing this now and publicly - thank you.

Mark/Tim - these answers are a good candidate for the umpire's guide.

Jon

[Ambrose Coddington]

Thank you Jon

The last bit is exactly where I was going with this.

In defense of using the rules to get an edge. We do play with out sportsmanship with this system. While I do enjoy a good game and almost always have fun (as do most of my opponents I think) wining is really what tournament play is all about. I think that Tim, myself and others that use holes (Or apparent holes) in the rules do so to gain that edge.

In an effort to be perhaps more true to the spirit of the game I am trying this out.

(Of course I have a few other goodies planned out using the intent of the rules. Innovations must come!)

Again thank you for the time Jon.

(I'm done for tonight. 8AM to 2AM is enough work for one day)

[Siward]

John,

As I am planning to run HYW English in the near future, this topic is essential to the way I will play. I wish to discuss this next bit from the post above;

<<If obstacles are 40 paces deep and you charge the unit behind them do you measure to the obstacle?>>

To the obstacle, if it is defended.

I have been told many times over the years that for a unit to charge troops behind a defended obstacle ( assuming they are in the open ) they must be within 40 paces if close foot or mounted and 80 paces if loose foot. This to me seems wrong as the body is not crossing the obstacle when it makes contact. After scouring the black book many times I am convinced that close foot can charge from 80, loose foot from 120 and loose mounted from 160.
I need to clear up what distance a body charging troops behind a defended obstacle measures. I would assume that to be able to charge the defenders you would have to be within your charge reach of them not the start of the obstacle.
One other question I have is in regard to the placement of obstacles. When a unit places an obstacle does it move back 40 paces so that the front of the obstacle is now where the unit's front was or does the unit stay in place and drop the obstacle straight in front of it?


Cheers.........Geoff

[joncleaves]

The charge to a body defending an obstacle is measured to the edge of the obstacle. This does mean that an osbtacle has a different nature if defended as opposed to not defended.

A portable obstacle is dropped in front of the body where it stands.

[Siward]

[joncleaves]

In open terrain, loose foot need to be within 120p of the defended obstacle to charge.

J