Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

having a bad IE7 day, just about to finish a lengthy request for clarification/info on this when it crashed.
Not going to try again...

But please take a look at the Anglo-Irish list options for generals' elements' weaponry when taken as foot, and consider them in light of middle-late period troop types of irregular close/loose-order non-missile foot.

It may be okay, but something may be amiss. It appears possible, for instance, that the specs for loose and close order may be reversed, but hard to say for certain.

At any rate, if Bill and/or Scott would provide some enlightenment as to how these were intended to piece together it would help me, and perhaps others, a lot in making up lists for this army in those periods.

Thanks.

[John Murphy]

okay, the details...

Anglo-Irish, Middle Period

CinC and Ally-generals possible options taken as foot elements...
Irr HI 2HCW,JLS
Irr HI JLS,Sh
Irr LHI 2HCW,Sh
Irr LHI JLS,Sh
...note there are no options to add or delete any of these weapons for the generals elements taken as foot

My issue, if you choose to call it such, is that these do not constitute a "fit" which seems to make sense to me with the troops they should be commanding in the rest of the list.

Irregular close or loose order foot troops for that period...
Bonnachts Irr LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh
Bonnachts Irr LMI 2HCW,JLS
Bonnachts Irr LMI JLS,Sh
Galloglaich Irr HI/MI 2HCW,JLS (can add D)
Galloglaich Irr HI/MI JLS (can add D)

So I am supposing the intention here is for the close-order generals to go with the Galloglaich and not take the JLS,Sh option (admittedly one could ascribe that to the Welsh Spearmen only allowed in the early period... one has to presume this is what it means altho it seems rather unlikely).

One also has to presume the loose-order generals go with the Bonachts and not take the 2HCW,Sh option (which admittedly could go with the early period Ostmen)

Now, there is no reason spelled out in the rules or any list notes why the generals elements must "match" the weaponry of some other element on the list. But one must admit it at least seems plausible that it should encompass these and if anything add extras just like it would be bizzarre to have a MI general in a HI unit. Alright, I may be stretching this and from lack of response maybe I did not state it with a sufficiently enlarged prostrate (wha' he say?!? - just amusing because as I was trying to look up prokesis or whatever the Byzantine custom is called I see nine or ten mispellings of the term prostate on the web by well-educated MDs)...

I am obviously not asking this to gain some competitive advantage over other players... in fact the middle period of this list with the Justiciary troops is an incredibly handicapped list even for the best of players (no wonder the Justiciars got absolutely nowhere in this period), but I have an actual historical interest in it and would enjoy playing it, but this item in particular is just catching in my craw and amongst all the other obstacles to playing this just may be one straw too much to overcome - which is silly, because it is clearly something that just needs an FHE Ho to take a fix-it-wrench to.

[jamiepwhite]

Hi,

I'm curious about this issue also, Steve Rawls and I have often struggled with the middle period list thinking there's a killer list in here somewhere struggling to get out. We've always leaned the other way, avoiding the Justiciar general and the associated line requirements. The version we usually draw up has been one of Irish rebels with Anglo Irish HC and longbowmen.

Are some of the options superseded by the errata?
Irr HI 2HCW,JLS matches with galloglaich
Irr HI JLS,Sh represents dismounted Irish HC?
Irr LHI 2HCW,Sh matches with bonnachts but should have JLS?
Irr LHI JLS,Sh matches with bonnachts



By the way, according to oral family stories from Ireland, the following errata should be added:

RD LMI LB to RC any (longbowmen of the Guiness company)
RC LMI LB to RB up to 1/2 (Veteran longbowmen of the Guiness company)
IC LMI to IB any (Bonnachts heading for the pub later)
IC LMI to ID any (Bonnachts forbidden to go to the pub later)
IB LMI to IA any (represents husbands seeking death in battle rather than face their wives)
add Sh to galloglaich any (To fend off wives or other hostiles throwing objects)

[John Murphy]

[scott holder]

John/Jamie:

I'm looking into this and will most likely have to discuss with Bill.

These things are never as easy as they look. Either that or Bill and I make em harder than they need to be.

scott

[John Murphy]

nah, Scott, you guys do great if you ask me, look how far things have come and all the obstacles that have had to be overcome...

It's just that afaik Jake is the only one actually playing this list and iirc he does not use the (IMO) terrible middle period, let alone do like I am going to do and suffer thru using the Justiciar as well!

But I can hardly wait. A while back I did a bit of research on Lionel Duke of Clarence and the Butlers & fitzGeralds of his time in Ireland (1361-1367) and fell in love with the wild characters that would be the probable commanders of this army, at least while Lionel was watching. Maybe Bill would toss in a unreliable ally die roll arrangement like some other lists have - now that would truly be a mark of cain to be proud of when playing this list!

[scott holder]

Bill, play a medieval Irish list? Heh heh, must be a different Bill.

Now Phil Gardocki plays these guys. And Jake plays some Irish list as well. I get em confused.

scott

[John Murphy]

currected, I knew it was one of you Ho's...

[jamiepwhite]

John,

Would you mind posting a sample list of how you build the middle period army? I'll look around and see if I can find one of the prior efforts Steve and I have tried down in Jacksonville. From memory, we were building like this

HK/HC CinC
HK/HC ally
2x 8 elements Kerns with JLS
2x 8 elements Kerns with S
2 x 8 elements of bonnachts
3 x 6 elements longbow
6 elements LC
4 x 2 elements HC L Sh

This isn't the exact list, but shows what we were thinking of with this list and staying away from the Justiciar. I'm pretty sure we skipped the galloclaich in favor of more HC.

Jamie

[John Murphy]

deleted

[John Murphy]

The reason why I like this list so much...

Before Lionel's expedition in 1361 (and, for that matter, any time Lionel or later William of Windsor or later still Richad II were not in the immediate area with their troops) the Anglo-Irish colonists were in dire straits, with most of the cultivated lands on the fringes being abandoned, due to shrinking population (partly emigration back to England, partly this is only 13 years after the Black Death) and absentee English lords who did not contribute to the colony's defence.

Lionel is, of course, the youngest son of King Edward III and the younger brother (Lionel was barely into manhood when he arrived in Ireland in 1361) of the Black Prince, whose military acumen Lionel did not appear to share. But like his older brother he did not survive to inherit. He married an Anglo-Irish heiress but she died while he was in Ireland. He had left Ireland in 1367 and was to be re-married in 1369 to an Italian lady I think when he perished of some "tropical disease" in Italy on his way to or from the wedding.

The Butlers and fitzGeralds were of course the two great feuding families of the English colony in Ireland. Butler had in fact taken and held fitzGerald in his dungeon, on some pretext, in the years preceding this until he was ordered by Edward III to make peace at which point fizGerald was married to his former captor's duaghter. fitzGerald's ancestor had been famously insulted by Butler's ancestor who had called him an author of Irish verse. "Gerald the Poet", however, must not have been so concerned over this as he is noted as the author of many verses himself. He was at any rate a rather bizzare character who suddenly disappeared a couple decades after this and no body or anything was ever found.

The MacMurrough kings of Leinster, who styled themselves as such and fact really were for all practical purposes over the preceding and following decades, were I believe descended from the Irish lord responsible for inviting Henry II to send troops to his aid in Ireland.

You can set all this against a backdrop of Western Europe just after the Plague when the post-Crecy/post-Neville's Cross/post-Poitiers "peace" (enforced by the fact the Kings of France and Scotland were both in the Tower of London I believe) had resulted in the Free Companies springing up all over and extorting the countryside, while the Condottieri were starting up in Italy and the English and French were turning to their proxy wars in Spain.

[scott holder]

I have the "make the general's more consistent" file in my Pending errata folder.

However, the general's won't be LC. Sheesh.

I've watched Phil and Jake play this or something close to it over the years. It does well in tourneys mainly because it wreaks so much havoc before it collapses.

And if you're into the history angle, that's even better.

scott

[Mark Stone]

[Frank Gilson]

True words are spoken here ...

But, an army like this is relatively difficult to work with. You don't get to reposition your irregular foot, so must master deployment.

You then have to master the use of combined arms, irregular shock foot plus lancers plus shooters. How do they best cooperate to attack?

Sometimes the lancers go in first, but this is fairly rare. Generally you try to shoot up some key enemy unit, then send in the infantry (or receive a charge with close order foot.) Finally your lancers charge flanks or at least overlapping elements that receive at the halt...at least this is your plan, your opponent will try hard to disagree.

[John Murphy]

[quote="jamiepwhite"]HK/HC CinC
HK/HC ally
2x 8 elements Kerns with JLS
2x 8 elements Kerns with S
2 x 8 elements of bonnachts
3 x 6 elements longbow
6 elements LC
4 x 2 elements HC L Sh
[/quote]

This is actually much better than my Justiciary list is going to be, due to the fact that the points saved on two more generals and the Justiciary troops are better spent here. But I kind of think it is still going to be a relatively lightweight list no matter how much you tweak it (makes me sound like the English commander at Sterling Bridge in the movie Braveheart).

That said, folks like Eric Turner can win (at least on occassion) with almost anything. The very cool thing (well, one) about Warrior is that yeah you can do all kinds of things to make a list _easier_ for yourself, more suited to your personality or more forgiving of your mistakes, but it is still possible with sufficient skill to take a real pile of garbage and win some games, maybe not all the time but at least some of the time. Certainly not me, but I can honestly say that I have been on the other side brought down by some very good players doing this to me over the years.

And in truth perhaps this has the potential in your hands to do something like that as a counter-attacking list. There is some missile fire and there are a lot of cheapo "junk" troops if you stay away from the Justiciars and that cheapo stuff can be used with skill as an anvil while you wait for chances to dink away at little opportunities here and there.

But I have a hard time seeing how the Galloglaich will survive their first encounter with enemy archers as they start wavering for 2 CPF while counting shieldless and are too slow and unweildy to remove themselves from that trouble. That said, hey they are definately a troop type that was a big part of this army (in fact, it may be a stretch but you could say for the Irish they were kind of the household elites while the Bonnachts were kind of the feudal troops) so I am taking them anyway, and will have to make sure there is something which can make the other guy pay just a s dearly for making me take those wavers - wich is the Warrior tactical idea of an army like this as far as I can tell, if indeed there is one in there to be found at all.

Plus, ya know, the Justiciary EHK and LHI longbowmen with all the goodies just look like kewel figures.