Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

In reading Mark's and Frank's analysis of NICT lists and playing strategies, I began to wonder if there are certain things (that tend to be found in "killer" lists) for which there really isn't much answer, i.e., "uber-troops."

The example that first comes to mind is that I agree with Mark that shooting is a major factor in most Warrior games, and that LHI with 2HCT is very, very effective, particularly combined with CB or any other ranged weapon( -see Japanese). This is largely for the simple reason that such troops get to shoot you once before combat, then again in support (either from a rear rank with bow, or with two or one and a half ranks of figures if they stand to receive), and then the same little men get to do a bunch damage to you in HTH (no matter if you're foot or mounted). That's a lot of damage per man in one bound, and even shiedless in subsequent bounds, they trade that +2 for a perennial -1 against all opponents, no matter what, and they're always dishing out a HTH factor of 5, round after round. That even makes Roman HTW/1HCW look weak, since 2HCT weapon factors don't go down as precipitously facing mounted.

So, I'd be interested in Mark's or Frank's (or anyone else's) thoughts on just exactly what antidote exists for this troop type. About all I can think of is to charge them with SHC or SHK or maybe El (after first carefully soaking off their CB fire on some supporting unit) and hope they fail their waver. What else can one do, frontally speaking???? Trying to shoot them up doesn't even work well if they're shielded or LEHI in the front rank. Thoughts from the pros????

[Mark Stone]

[Bill Chriss]

Excellent stuff. Thanks Mark. This helps me a lot. I'm struggling, kicking and screaming, to make progress along the Warrior learning curve.

[jamiepwhite]

The anti RB LHI CB 2HCT Sh troop type, RC LMI LTS S Sh such as Inca and several other south american armies field. An 8 point fig vs. a 5 point fig, for once Inca has an advantage.

[Frank Gilson]

Actually, the Inca can't use circulating combatants...so if they are forced to fight the LHI 2HCT,CB...they're in very serious (routing soon) trouble.

Yes, the fact that they have sling and skirmish shooting shielded is a win for the shooting war...but let's see the factors.

16 Reg C or B LHI 2HCT,CB against 16 Reg C or B LMI LTS,S,Sh

LHI halberd/XBow guys are in skirmish firing 12 at a -1 for nothing...
Incas are 12 at a 2 for 24...a +2 roll is needed to do 2 CPF (unlikely)...

So here the LHI halberdiers want to get to 40p and charge the Inca, hoping to catch them, and aren't too generally bothered by the shooting (if they can remain in skirmish.)

Nothing happens in isolation, however, as Mark states. Even if the lone halberdiers face Inca in the above manner, they should position themselves such as to push Inca back at a critical location such as a flank hinge, because the Inca unit MUST evade or die. Thus the halberdiers achieve a strategic advantage, even if unable to come to grips with a tactical one.

Also, if I can force your infantry into Skirmish with my superior fighters, then, again, as Mark states, I can charge you with mounted to catch you or at least cause waver. The Inca have no mounted.

Frank

[Mark Stone]

[Bill Chriss]

[Frank Gilson]

One way to look at things is to eliminate worries. So, what can your opponent NOT do?

If your enemy has no mounted, you won't be facing any mounted charges and you can put your poor morale loose order foot in the open.

If your opponent only has things like HCh, SHC, or Elephants as mounted, you won't be facing any charges from 160p, only 120p.

If your opponent has no significant (massed) shooting, well, you won't be taking much in the way of prep or support or the resulting effects.

If your enemy has no LC, your LI is 'safer' than it otherwise would be.

So, look at the army you fight against to eliminate things for you to worry about. Then those things don't complicate your play.

Frank

[jamiepwhite]

Inca, being the most advanced of the South American armies, can field mounted troops in the post conquest period. HC JLS Sh and HK L Sh are available if desired. The post conquest period is kind of neat, not as many high morale foot, lots of pike, Inca mounted on stolen horses, and Spanish troops from the losing Almagrist faction.

[Frank Gilson]

Jamie's basically correct about the Inca...although I'd clarify that there's no HC L,Sh, only JLS,Sh, and of generally poor morale (Irr C) which is an "unusable troop type". There are only two elements of HK L,Sh available which are pretty much not going to be charging impetuously. Thus I don't consider the Post-Conquest Epilogue period Inca to be that playable.

[AntiokosIII]

Despite the counter-measures suggested by Mark and Frank, this thread reinforces the opinion I formed this summer at H-Con; the Feudal Japanese list is so good it's almost TOO good. ALL of the tactics suggested here were thrown at me without much success. I basically used the same list and same simple-minded tactics in 6 games and won 5, only losing that one due to my own deep stupidity- I wandered away from my own plan and committed two unforced errors against an opponent, Dave Dietrich, more skilled than myself. Well, to be fair, most of my opponents were more skilled than myself. I won not because my skills were better, but because a from rank of LEHI, LB, 2HCT is a super troop type that with decent dice luck will cure any mistake against frontal opponents.

[Frank Gilson]

There are some armies that can't handle the Japanese, true.

There are some people that can't fight against the Japanese, with any army, true. (although they could learn)

Don't take the Feudal Japanese against me, though...or Mark Stone...or Derek Downs...or Dave Markowitz...or Ewan McNay.

It's likely we have both an army, and the knowledge, to destroy you utterly, have you driven before us, as we listen to the lamentation of your women.

Seriously, though, shieldless LEHI do have to worry about massed crossbow and longbow fire, especially that which can evade. They also have to worry about massed knights, and the combined arms of a knight unit used to pin, and good hth infantry used to win. Finally, they don't actually like to fight elephants (especially with pike) all that much.

Although, yes, if you can consistently roll up on your dice you'll still do well. Don't look for that at the average event.

Frank "Sun Tzu" Gilson

[Ewan McNay]

Just as a couple of examples: in the teams at CW, Todd and I faced 2000 points of Japanese using KoSJ; that's Frank's "knights and infantry" tag-team, and no problem. I faced them with Sassanids a few times; once a 1-1 draw (Dave Markowitz), the others no problem for an elephant/SHC/shooters combination, especially with the Sassanid lights controlling the battlefield. I know Jon's Welsh *loved* to face them. Lots of other examples, honestly.

[They're not at all a *bad* army - they're just not as good as you think ]

[AntiokosIII]

Sorry, Frank, I can't hear you above all the lamenting women (they wanted to get a head start). At H-Con I had an 8-stand Samurai/Ashigaru unit charged by 4 units of SHK at once. I was able to charge impetuously as well. I rolled up two, recoiled them all, and eventually routed all 4. Very lucky dice, true, but I was franklly shocked it was possible at all. Even tired and disordered, I still beat them on the second and subsequent bounds, and kept driving them back until my flank supports arrived (and I got another big up roll).

Still, I accept your points (1) that they can be beaten by superior play, and (2) there are lots of people whose play is superior to mine. Still, they are one very, very nasty bunch of dudes.

[Frank Gilson]

Yes, the Samurai are very strong...the problem with the Feudal Japanese list is the homogeneity of it...you don't get lancers, various supporting troops, cheap plentiful lights, etc.

The couple of lists that permit some Samurai mixed with other troops you can't get LEHI and have various other serious problems that rule them out.

They're also very well situated to benefit from plus die rolls.