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Carthaginians

 
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Carthaginians

Later Carthaginian - Second Punic War, Hannibal in Italy
16 units in 2 commands totalling 1587 pts scouting 36

[had to take down - playing in a tourney - will repost afterwards]


Last edited by John Murphy on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: too few units...

At 14 total units, you have too few...by about 4...With so few units on 1600 points you will find yourself outflanked, or suffer too many critical two on ones against you.

Also, where are your Reg C LI S,Sh (8 man units)? Those guys are great.

As for Alexandrian Imperial, if you plan to use pike then take actual pike, not experimental phalanx. If you instead don't want to use close order foot, take only the one unit of 8 elements of experimental phalanx (with bow in 3rd and 4th ranks.)

You can take peltasts (which should all be regular) or not...but make sure to take both units of Hypaspists.

Frank
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: too few units...

[quote="Frank Gilson"]At 14 total units, you have too few[/quote]

I count 16 (3 El, 7 loose/close foot, 4 LI, 2 LC), which seems to be fairly average in the comps I play in at 1600. When I run an army with 18 I usually have really cheap-o units and usually have a couple more than my opponent. At least that is the way things are around here.

[quote="Frank Gilson"]where are your Reg C LI S,Sh (8 man units)[/quote]

Not sure these are really better than LI JLS, Sh but okay there are plenty of those already so maybe some LI S,Sh _would_ be good in exchange for one or two of the LI JLS units. And Reg LI being cheaper, and having the extra pts still anyhow, that should be do-able.

Also, since I posted this I worked out a way to add the Roman deserters (1 4E and 1 2E) by dropping the seemingly overkill 3rd unit of Reg Spaniards and using those extra pts. But, kind of go back and forth on that one.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject:

ahh, ok, 16 units...that's still a couple short for my tastes...

LI JLS,Sh, especially irregular, can rarely get into skirmish 'when it matters' in front of shooting.

They're also just generally 'meat' on the table for most mounted troops and don't even do any shooting damage to such.

Slingers will at least put a CPF on many mounted, and can readily get into skirmish AND shoot shielded against denser enemy shooting.

Some LI JLS,Sh (2-3 units maximum) is still useful, in conjunction with your own mounted (javelin LI drive off enemy LI without fatigue cost.)

Frank
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject:

Okay I buy it. Not 100%, I think you sell short the usefulness of LI JLS, Sh against other light troops mounted or foot, but again I am hardly qualified to dispute that point with you certainly. But anyway I see what you are saying and the little Reg LI units are relatively cheap anyway.

Revised then, but need to decide what to dump or downgrade to trim the 84 extra pts, I am leaning toward dumping the 2E Roman unit as it would seem the least useful item but that is only 58 of 79 so I would still require a further 21 pt reduction somewheres:

[had to take down - playing it in a tourney - will re-post afterwards]


Last edited by John Murphy on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: much better

ok...that's much much better...time for playtesting Wink...
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:22 am    Post subject:

Oh, by the way, tourney long over, here was the Carthaginian list - still looks like a pretty good list with the mixture of the different foot units and the elephants although in the couple games I played the close order foot did not make it to contact and the lack of mounted that could charge something at 160p was a bit of a pain. I think. It was probably a year ago and memory fades.

(I remember the first battle was against the old list Midianite camel machineguns, not really a good matchup as I could not catch anything and got shot to pieces... I will post who the second game was but at the moment I simply can not remember, the third game someone had to take a bye and since I had been blown away twice I volunteered)

1605 pts, scout 34

1 Hannibal CinC / Elephants 3E Irr 1B/2C El unarm drv astride & 2 JLS howdah @186
2 Elephants 3E Irr C El unarm drv astride & 2 JLS in howdah @145
1 Maharbal Sub-general / Numidian Cavalry 4E Reg B LC JLS,Sh @113
1 Numidian Cavalry 4E Reg C LC JLS,Sh @74
1 Numidian Javelinmen 6E Irr C LI JLS,Sh @61
2 Balearic Slingers 4E Reg C LI S,Sh @42
1 Spanish Caetrati 6E Irr C LI JLS,Sh @61
2 Spanish Celtiberian Scutarii 4E Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh @85
2 Spanish Scutarii 4E Reg C LMI HTW,JLS,Sh @90
3 Roman Deserters 2E Reg C HI HTW,Sh @58
2 Veteran African Spearmen 4E Reg B HI/MI LTS,Sh @106
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject:

having now played with carthaginians a bit, the best i have come up with is

Carthaginian - Italy variant - 2nd Punic War 1604 pts, 2 com, s.p. 41
Cinc 1E, IrrB,El unarm dr and 2 in howdah with jls + 1e, EL, IrrC, unarmed driver 2 with jls 146
Subgeneral - Maharbal 1E LC, RegB, jls, sh + 1E LC, RegB, jls, sh 77
Numidian LC, 2E RegC, LC, JLS, SH 42
Numidian LC, 2E RegC, LC, JLS, SH 42
Numidian LC, 2E RegC, LC, JLS, SH 42
Elephants 2E, El, IrrC, unarmed dr. with 2 in howd with jls 105
Elephants 2E, El, IrrC, unarmed dr. with 2 in howd with jls 105
Elephants 2E, El, IrrC, unarmed dr. with 2 in howd with jls 105
Roman Deserters 2E, RegC, HI, HTW, Sh 58
Roman Deserters 2E, RegC, HI, HTW, Sh 58
African Spearmen 6E, RegC, MI, LTS, SH 106
Scutarii 2E RegC, LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 50
Scutarii 2E RegC, LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 50
Scutarii 2E RegC, LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 50
Scutarii 2E RegC, LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 50
Celtiberian Scutarii 4E IrrB, LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 85
Celtiberian Scutarii 4E IrrB, LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 85
Scutarii 4E (1IrrA, 3IrrC), LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 79
Scutarii 4E (1IrrA, 3IrrC), LMI, HTW, JLS, SH 79
Spanish Caetrati 6E, IrrC, LI, JLS, SH 61
Numidian LI 6E, IrrC, LI, JLS, SH 61
Balearic slingers 4E,RegC, LI, S, SH 42
Balearic slingers 2RegC, LI, S, SH 26

if i feel i am likely to be facing a lot of bows i will cut back on some scut's and buy more lights - particularly slingers.

it has pretty good flexibility and at 20+ units can cover a lot of width. put brush on flanks to allow numidian LC to control flanks, put elephants and reg scut in groups spread across front to allow combined arms and make enemy cav/kn unhappy and roll forward. big weakness is lack of ranged weapons so some might like more LI to absorb arrows and also lacks cav that can catch opponents. overall a great combined arms army
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