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Macedonians

 
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Macedonians

as promised here is a cut at the Alexandrian Imperial list.

i know there are plenty, well certainly at least a few, versions of this list published which might be better than what I come up with but flavour is not inconsequential to me here and I wanted to see what I could do with them.
nevertheless this feels somehow sub-optimal even to me.

1. i think i need a regular "super-peltast" unit, maybe two, to balance things out some. maybe.
2. the reg LI JLS and reg LC JLS are both kind of serving the same purpose in a way, albeit each does things better than the other. seems like overkill though in an army configuration that is not exactly hurting for numbers of light troops. if i needed to find points for some peltasts this might be the area i am most inclined to look.
3. no elephants, not sure about this but maybe the El in this configuration without the Indian allies are hard to make work for the points, plus if I am going to have the companions do some counter-punching then the El are going to risk getting in their way performing a similar role which would be bad. but something to use against knights (unless the lights might accomplish this to set the companions up), well, maybe I should re-visit this.

Alexandrian Imperial 329 BC - 320 BC
Classical Warrior #23

18 units in 2 commands totalling 1594 pts scouting 82

1 2E unit @ 150 pts
1E Alexander CinC as HC L + 2 Reg A HC L @ 120 pts
1E Agema Reg A HC L @ 30 pts

4 2E units @ 70 pts
2E Companions Reg A HC L @ 30 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

2 4E units @ 110 pts
1E Hypaspists Reg A LHI LTS, Sh @ 32 pts
1E Hypaspists Reg B LHI LTS, Sh @ 28 pts
2E Hypaspists Reg B LMI LTS, Sh @ 20 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 8E unit @ 222 pts
1E Sub-general as HI P, Sh + 3 Reg A HI P, Sh @ 74 pts
1E Macedonian Phalangites Reg B HI P, Sh @ 28 pts
6E Macedonian Phalangites Reg B MI P, Sh @ 20 pts

2 8E units @ 154 pts
2E Macedonian Phalangites Reg C HI P, Sh @ 24 pts
6E Macedonian Phalangites Reg C MI P, Sh @ 16 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 38 pts
2E Cretan Archers Reg C LI B, Sh @ 8 pts
2E Cretan Archers Reg C LI B @ 6 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 42 pts
4E Agrianian Javelinmen Reg C LI JLS, Sh @ 8 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 42 pts
4E Thracian Javelinmen Reg C LI JLS, Sh @ 8 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 66 pts (could have 2 units)
4E Thracian Cavalry Reg B LC JLS @ 14 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 66 pts
4E Thessalian Cavalry Reg B LC JLS @ 14 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

2 4E units @ 73 pts
2E Skythian Cavalry Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 14 pts
2E Skythian Cavalry Irr C LC JLS, B @ 10 pts
1 Irr command factor @ 25 pts

1 6E unit @ 85 pts
6E Bactrian Cavalry Irr C JLS, B @ 10 pts
1 Irr command factor @ 25 pts

Summary:
18 units in 2 commands
5 HC L units with Companion list rules for shock mounted
2 Reg LHI/LMI LTS units with Hypaspist list rules for line foot
3 MI P units with Phalangite list rules for line foot
plus light troops...
1 Reg LI B/Sh unit
2 Reg LI JLS/Sh units
2 Reg LC JLS units with 1.5-rank list rule
2 Irr LC JLS/B/Sh units with 1.5-rank list rule
1 Irr LC JLS/B unit
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject:

You have a bunch of shieldless HC that can't beat anything important (even with all their fancy list rules), and a bunch of pike that can't catch anything important. What exactly is your plan here?

Take the elephants.

You want to pair an elephant unit with a Hypaspist unit, as one of each charging in tandem will flatten pretty much any foot in the game.

The shieldless JLS-armed LC are useful, but not that useful. Take 3 4-figure units rather than 8-figure units.

Probably you need one more missile-armed LI unit.

That's my quick reaction; hope it helps.


-Mark Stone
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject:

i believe the shieldless HC (and i didn't take more than i thought i could cover) are cheap counter-punchers good for hitting units that have already been stopped by something else or opportunity targets that are not optimized for hand-to-hand. that was "the plan" as you so put it.

anyhow, can i really bring myself to play an Alexandrian army that doesn't find a way to make use of companions or phalangites? just how cheazy do i want to get here?

sure you are correct though, perhaps this is a better starting point? seems waaaaay too light this way for me tho (after all trying to catch "stuff they can't catch" is still sometimes making a better threat than not being able to charge "stuff they can't charge"), maybe a Reg peltast unit would help? or maybe i shouldn't be touching this army with a 16 foot pike?

Alexandrian Imperial 329 BC - 320 BC
Classical Warrior #23

20 units in 2 commands totalling 1574 pts scouting 78

1 2E unit @ 150 pts
1E Alexander CinC as HC L + 2 Reg A HC L @ 120 pts
1E Agema Reg A HC L @ 30 pts

2 2E units @ 70 pts
2E Companions Reg A HC L @ 30 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

2 4E units @ 110 pts
1E Hypaspists Reg A LHI LTS, Sh @ 32 pts
1E Hypaspists Reg B LHI LTS, Sh @ 28 pts
2E Hypaspists Reg B LMI LTS, Sh @ 20 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

2 2E units @ 105 pts
2E Elephants El Irr C crew astride of JLS-armed driver and 1 with P @ 40 pts
1 Irr command factor @ 25 pts

1 4E unit @ 134 pts
1E Sub-general as HI P, Sh + 3 Reg A HI P, Sh @ 74 pts
3E Macedonian Phalangites Reg B MI P, Sh @ 20 pts

2 4E units @ 82 pts
1E Macedonian Phalangites Reg C HI P, Sh @ 24 pts
3E Macedonian Phalangites Reg C MI P, Sh @ 16 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 6E unit @ 52 pts
3E Cretan Archers Reg C LI B, Sh @ 8 pts
3E Cretan Archers Reg C LI B @ 6 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 42 pts
4E Agrianian Javelinmen Reg C LI JLS, Sh @ 8 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 4E unit @ 42 pts
4E Thracian Javelinmen Reg C LI JLS, Sh @ 8 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

2 2E units @ 38 pts
2E Thracian Cavalry Reg B LC JLS @ 14 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

1 2E unit @ 38 pts
2E Thessalian Cavalry Reg B LC JLS @ 14 pts
1 Reg command factor @ 10 pts

2 4E units @ 73 pts
2E Skythian Cavalry Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 14 pts
2E Skythian Cavalry Irr C LC JLS, B @ 10 pts
1 Irr command factor @ 25 pts

1 6E unit @ 85 pts
6E Bactrian Cavalry Irr C JLS, B @ 10 pts
1 Irr command factor @ 25 pts

1 10E unit @ 75 pts
5E Persian Slingers Irr C S, Sh @ 6 pts
5E Persian Archers Irr C B @ 4 pts
1 Irr command factor @ 25 pts

Summary:
20 units in 2 commands
3 HC L units with Companion list rules for shock mounted
2 El P+ units for shock mounted
2 Reg LHI/LMI LTS units with Hypaspist list rules for line foot
3 MI P units with Phalangite list rules for line foot
plus light troops...
1 Reg LI B/Sh unit
2 Reg LI JLS/Sh units
3 Reg LC JLS units with 1.5-rank list rule
2 Irr LC JLS/B/Sh units with 1.5-rank list rule
1 Irr LC JLS/B unit
1 Irr LI S/B/Sh unit


Last edited by John Murphy on Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:56 pm    Post subject: pike

I'm of the opinion that you go 'all in' with the pikemen, or you buy a minimum (in this list's case one 8 element unit of experimental phalanx, half bow.)

The Alexandrian Imperial list has the Elephant/Hypaspist attack combo, and it has a very good combination of LI and LC. You can go 'light' on these aspects and get a bunch of pikemen, if that's your flavor...or go 'heavy' on those aspects and have almost no close order foot.

Something in between is a bad compromise.
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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject:

[quote="Mark Stone"]You want to pair an elephant unit with a Hypaspist unit, as one of each charging in tandem will flatten pretty much any foot in the game.[/quote]

[quote="Frank Gilson"]The Alexandrian Imperial list has the Elephant/Hypaspist attack combo[/quote]

Please elaborate, if someone would not mind.

Also, it looks like there are points to do this and still take most of the phalangites (which I think would still work well with the few companions in the right circumstance, and in any case are capable at least of self-defense), so I am not sure why this a 'compromise' and not just a matter of having both?
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: pike

Frank Gilson wrote:
I'm of the opinion that you go 'all in' with the pikemen, or you buy a minimum (in this list's case one 8 element unit of experimental phalanx, half bow.)

The Alexandrian Imperial list has the Elephant/Hypaspist attack combo, and it has a very good combination of LI and LC. You can go 'light' on these aspects and get a bunch of pikemen, if that's your flavor...or go 'heavy' on those aspects and have almost no close order foot.

Something in between is a bad compromise.


What Frank said.

My prejudice, I suppose, but I see people run large numbers of pikemen and I never know what their plan is; how do they actually expect to win with these guys? It can't be "I'll catch evaders" because you can't, and it can't be "I'll push him off the table" because you won't. Beyond that, I just don't get it.

Anyway. If you take pikemen, have a specific plan for how to make them effective.


-Mark Stone
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AntiokosIII
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject:

In theory, Mark is correct. If he really wants to, your opponent can almost always avoid fighting your pikes.

In practice, having played Seleukids in an awful lot of tourneys, a good plan can make the methods your opponent will have to employ to stay out of the way of the pikes so unpleasant that the pikes will wind up getting into combat. Such a plan usually involves running a LOT of pikes; my view is that if you run less than 24 elements, you're wasting your time. I am presently working on a list that uses 4 units of 8 stands each, all MI except for the front rank HI. The idea is to force your opponent into fighting your peltasts and elephants on a relatively narrow front where they can be supported by lights from bad going and work as a team. Against less nimble opponents, the pikes will get in and smash things. Against more nimble opponents, you will use 4 units to deny the use of about 1/2 the table to your enemy and make him fight where you want him to.

This approach means that you must be willing to accept the fact that you will see a fair number of draw results. In my experience, enough of us are agressive enough to be taunted into an ill-advised attack to make up for the occasional draw. If your opponent is always Frank or Mark, you won't score a lot of tourney points. OTOH, against most people, I usually find folks are even more anxious to get those points than I am, so getting them to attack those poor defenseless pelts is not usually too hard.

It's too bad that , despite a really determined effort by the Horsemen, which I applaud, to try and make Pikes and Companion Cavalry more fearsome, these troops are not the world-beaters on the table that they were for Alexander. The game ain't perfect, just better than all the other games it competes with (by a lot). Use the army for what it can do, not what you wish it could do, anf it can be a nasty one.

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: couple of points...etc.

First off, Elephants + Hypaspists:
Elephants are a mounted body, Hypaspists are a non-impetuous foot body, that are both permitted to charge the same target together. The Elephant mounted charge will cause most enemy infantry to take the combined charge at the halt. They also cause unease which is useful against various irregular foot troops. Calculate what happens in the combat when the elephants AND the hypaspists hit the same foot target. It isn't pretty for that poor infantry enemy. Now note that both the Elephants and Hypaspists are just fine against enemy mounted of any type and you have an extremely potent battlefield combination. An enemy with concentrated bow fire will attempt to blast your elephants into oblivion and evade from your Hypaspists...so beware of that, but only really that. In some rare cases you want to send in just the elephants first, then the hypaspists on the following bound, or vice versa...run the numbers and situations first before you encounter them.

As far as pikemen...in order to use them properly you do definitely need 3-4 units. They should have 2 elements of HI each. You then need to leverage the fact that they are large regular foot units and do things like...

Perhaps start the pike one element deep, 8 elements wide, possibly force marched. When the enemy cries with glee that they get to crush a pike unit, you turn either left or right, forming a one element wide column, perhaps you wheel 40p here, or perhaps not. You then make the opposite turn to face the enemy again only two elements wide, possibly doing your 40p wheel here, or not. Suddenly you're in prime attacking/defending formation.

Your enemy wisely leaves your pike alone...but you find you have the opportunity to wheel, move 80p, and expand out two elements projecting behind a carelessly exposed flank, possibly within your charge reach.

Also read the 'passing a gap' rules, page 62, 6.53, about how you can drop elements back from a gap without reducing your movement or permitted maneuvers...you can create your own gaps with your own troops...nearby terrain, the enemy, or some combination.

Frank
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject:

If I have time, I'm going to move this to Tactics. That's where it, and other posts like it, should go.

scott

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: true enough...

Yah...seems to start out as Army List...but then turns into Tactics...every time Wink.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Alexandrian Imperial

This is an interesting topic, but I have played close formation foot containing armies forever, and while playing Macedonians, I cannot remember a game that the Pike did not get into battle.
Now they move 120 paces so it is even better - however if I have any doubts I forcemarch half the army - and in 2.5 hours you need another foot at the back of the table or to fight
Slow palyers can be a problem, I will never forget someone in nationals taking 40 minutes to move 1 unit - but for the most part people are playing for fun, and that means you get to fight
Robert
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject:

I think that Dave Markowitz has shown that you can win an NICT with Macedonians and that was BEFORE the pike could move 120p.

You need a balanced list IMO - 3-4 pike, 2 elephants, 2 peltasts/hypaspists, regular LI and LC with about 2 HC units.

If you keep you line you can push along a fair amount of frontage and force your enemy to fight you.

Todd

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