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Combined Arms - foot and mounted

 
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Combined Arms - foot and mounted

The recent "Army List" thread on Byzantines made it clear to me that I am deep in tactical analysis on a certain approach to combined arms, and that I'd be interested in sharing my thoughts and getting feedback on some thorny tactical issues where I'm having difficulty figuring things out.

Background:
Warrior is a game of combined arms, and I've been focusing in on a particular aspect. Here's the dilemma:
    * Foot typically deals the most outright damage to other foot, and good shock foot do this better than good shock mounted.
    * Mounted have high value in combat against foot because if they are involved in a winning combat, they impose disorder on the enemy foot, and lots of great opportunities open up once enemy foot is disordered.
    * So how does one get the high damage impact of good shock foot together with the disordering advantage of shock mounted?

My insight of roughly 4 years ago is that mounted don't actually have to win to impose disorder; they only have to be involved in a winning combat in which the mounted do not break or break off. So in theory by combining foot who provide the margin of victory in the same combat with mounted who provide the disordering effect, you can construct a combined arms force that will take down enemy foot that are impervious to either troop type in isolation.

The example I gave in the "Army Lists" discussion was having impetuous Varangians charge enemy foot at the same time as non-impetuous SHC. The SHC don't win against the toughest foot (pike), but they force the foot to take the charge at the halt, and they don't lose by more than the Varangian margin of victory, meaning the enemy foot lose overall and must recoil disordered. If, as an added bonus, you can keep the mounted who lose from becoming disordered, then they will rally in time to charge in again next bound, now fighting disordered foot.

I used essentially the same tactic when playing 10 Independent States. The elephants would charge together with firelance-armed LTS HI. The elephants are fairly mediocre as elephants go, but they would force enemy foot to take the charge at the halt, and they would impose disorder if the foot lost. Further, the elephants do well enough against almost all foot so that even if they lose, it isn't by more than the firelancers win.

These two cases represent the two general types of combined arms you can use in this situation:
    * Lance-armed mounted (or similar) charging together with impetuous foot;
    * Elephants charging together with non-impetuous foot.


Here are various combinations I've looked at from different armies:
    * Macedonian pikes charging together with elephants;
    * Hypaspists charging together with elephants;
    * Reg C Spanish charging together with Carthaginian elephants;
    * Firelance Chinese charging together with tribal elephants;
    * 2HCT Chinese charging together with Burmese elephants;
    * Varangians charging together with SHC;
    * Almughuvars charging together with SHC;
    * Almughuvars charging together with SHK;
    * Almughuvars charging together with EHK;
    * Galwegians charging together wtih SHK;
    * Northern Barbarians charging together with Chinese heavy chariots.


There are various problems I've encountered with this approach that I'm still working on:
    * These combinations are easier to set up than various "rout at contact" combinations, but take longer to produce results - rout usually results from a series of failed wavers from successive causes of disorder, and there isn't always enough time for this to be decisive;
    * Some of these combinations lose a lot of impact after the first bound - HTW is less potent on the second bound, 2HCW armed foot become shieldless on the second bound, etc;
    * Coordinating an attack when there is a mismatch in march move or tactical move speed can be tricky - irregular foot get only 2 march moves, but all mounted get either 3 or 4, and close order foot get only an 80p approach/charge, wherease all mounted get either 120p or 160p.


So figuring all this out is still a work in progress, and I've yet to identify the best army for these tactics. Every army I've played in 25mm in Lancaster in the last 4 years has been on this list however:
    * Shang Chinese - Northern Barbarians and chariots;
    * 10 Independent States - Firelancers and elephants;
    * Ming Chinese - 2HCT and elephants.


If I make it to Historicon, whatever I bring will doubtless involve refinements on these ideas.


-Mark Stone
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject: Combined arms

Frank
Great topic, and while I sympathize with your search for perfection, I know I have never found it.
However my favourite army for this is Han Chinese (followed by Seluicid), however the rock paper scissors is where I caome adrift:
If I look at the armies that regularly tie me in knots, they combine good shooting, flexibility and hard hitting cav (I don't count games where he roles up I role down and I go home- those have a very different dynamic)
The problem is that as hard as it is to get these matchups, they are much tougher when your opponent can counter, recall etc and spoil the matchup leaving three turns to set up the same scenario.

What did you do at historicon, and have you found the perfect army yet?
All the best
Robert
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:54 am    Post subject: its Mark! ;)

That was Mark Stone...not me Wink...

Well, Mark, close order foot X rule for moving 120p helps keep them moving 'fast enough'...regular close order foot from that rule get a 3rd march move.

Irregular foot who get to count the Barbarian rules can pay a fatigue for a 3rd march move (whether close or loose)...which you typically only need to do once.

So...if you find yourself in an event using the X-rules, you can keep your foot moving 'fast enough'.

As Robert does bring up, though, people (skilled, anyway) are going to see it coming, and even if they can't get that situation solved...they can at least pull things that would waver test for the 'slow rout' out of the way.

So...I view these combined arms as tools to have to apply when the opportunity exists, but not the key to the battle...which is most often exploiting an enemy mistake.

Finally, if you're using Elephants plus regular foot...the regular foot don't have to follow up the disordered, recoiling opposing foot. Non-impetuous foot aren't required to...if they have 2HCW or 2HCT or HTW or LTS or P (pretty much any weapon) they are far better off with a new charge.

Frank
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chrisbump
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject:

It has been some years since I've played and I realize that the rules that would never be changed have been ammended somewhat, but don't pike that lose in hth go disordered in the first bound and not recoil?

If that is the case why push the cats or knights into the fray where they will take worse casualties than if they charge the disorderd pike in the subsequent bound?

Chris
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: pike recoil to mounted

Should pike lose to mounted...they do recoil...it is only if they lose to foot that they disorder instead of recoiling.

Frank
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chrisbump
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject:

Yes, I recall that now.
Thanks Frank.
The question still begs though.
If you are already attacking with foot that will win the fight and thus cause the pike to disorder, why push the cats in the same bound while the pike can still hurt them as opposed to the subsequent bound?

Chris
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: foot may not win alone...

The mounted force the pikes to take the entire charge at the halt...whereas this may not be the case if the foot were to charge alone (phalangites charge is not necessarily cancelled by enemy impetuous charge).

Also, the mounted force the pike to recoil...allowing your foot to expand, and get a follow up bonus...if foot alone, the pike won't be recoiling.

Frank
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject: combined arms

This is good stuff.
I have to remember this when I play Matt's Alex Imp.
Keep it going.
EdK
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