Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[smoke]

I am historically very interested in this army and therefore would like to play it. As I review the list however, it seems that it has some nice components but lacks the ability to deliver much of a punch (although EHC,L,SH isn't bad.). Any thoughts from experienced players out there as to whether this army can stand up to some of the other ancient powerhouses such as alex imp, or seleucids

smoke

[John Garlic]

I agree with you on the historical interest. There have been several posts as well as AARs on the forum concerning this army. I personally am very interested in the Hebrews historically and have played quite a few different Hebrew armies. I really like the Maccabbees and have taken them to Lancaster to demonstrate the many possible ways there are to get crushed. I tend to like the guerilla period, so didn't use a lot of he other options. The barbarian rules are a great help in staying power and I really like the 'E' bowmen. If you want to know how to get ridden down by all of the variants of cavalry, how to pick yourself out of the toenails of the elephant that just sent your buddies flying to the rear, or the best way to remove a pilum from your body - I'm your man!

[Bill Chriss]

Ah, John "Like the Toast" Garlic...Where have you been, man? I am here in Austin, so if you come this way, let me know for a game possibly. My email offlist is wjchriss@mail.utexas.edu.

As for the Maccabaeans, they are a terrific army, much like my Hellenistic Greeks. The key is the proper use of Reg B peltasts, my favorite troop type, and one that is very much limited to this list and my Hellenistics. I think the upgrade to EHC from HC for the Reg B shielded lancers is worth it and puts your cavalry at or above most other shock cavalry of the period, better than Macedonians or Greeks or anyone else.

Blow off the pike entirely. Take 2 or 3 units of LMI Guerilla Javelinmen as 1E IrrA, 3E IrrC. Intersperse these behind gaps in your peltast battle line. Take a bunch of 4E Reg B peltast units to form that line. Cavalry of the army is basically for general's bodyguards, 1E for each of 4 generals. Take a bunch of LI Guerilla javelinmen 2E Irr A + 4E Irr C Note that you can save some points by not shielding the back rank (s). Supplement this skirmisher force with as much Reg B Judaean LC as you can buy in an assortment of mostly 2E, and a couple of 4E unit sizes.

If you keep your peltasts' flanks covered, you're looking at most opponents wanting to bet on mounted charging your peltasts to force a 1/6 (or 1/3 if uneasy) waver test. That's about it. That ain't bad odds, and if you pass you win, especially since the JLS really hurts elephants. And anyone can skirmish except your EHC, so you can try to stay away from bad matchups. Cavalry can prevent that, but I woukld argue that Reg B, LTS, JLS, Sh shouldn't run from anyone but SHK and SHC anyway, and there, if your caught to close to evade, you can probably throw some JLS in prep shooting and maybe get lucky, besides which, it's a big points mismatch as to what is being used up trying to break your 106 pts 4E peltast unit. Absent a failed waiver, you won't break on contact, which is why it helps to have small second line units (Irr LMI, LC, EHC, and perhaps an occasional 2E Reg B unit) to pop enemy shock cav in the flanks as it recoils an isolated unit here or there backwards creating gaps in your line.

The kryptonite for armies like this: anyone with HTW and superheavy knights. Peltasts can't stand up to these, although skirmishing them and wisely using EHC lancers might save you against a slow Roman army or Spanish or Moogs. So if you have the points an extra 2E EHC lancer unit might be worth buying as insurance against such a matchup. All you can do with heavy heavy knight armies is try to pick a few infantry units to mess with and try to keep the knights tied up with a swarm of LC and LI. One really good thing about this army is its light troops, even though the LI is irregular. Irr A is tough for most enemy LI to stand up to.

Historical interest aside, I prefer Hellenistics because: 1. they get flaming pigs; 2. they get artillery; 3. they get Thracians w/ 2HCW; 4. They can upgrade front rank peltasts to LHI; 5. The LI can be regular or irregular; 6. Although they put out less shooting than Maccabaean LC, Tarantines fight better and are quite effective agianst enemy lights

Now, we'll see from Frank and Mark if I know the slightest thing about what I am talking about!

[smoke]

i appreciate the in-depth input. in my inexperience i would have thought the pike might have some utility in standing against knight armies and in at least delaying a roman army while more mobile elements could press its flanks

smoke

[Bill Chriss]

As for pikemen, unless you are willing to force march it as part of your fourth command in order to match it up quickly against a part of the enemy army you can identify, it will likely never see more than one bound of combat, and, like artillery, should be seen as essentially slightly mobile impassable terrain. That, FWIW, is my experience with phalangites and hoplites both, at least in open tournament play. Peltasts are quicker and much more versatile, especially with high morale. Whiloe phalanxes kill really heavy knights and cav better than peltasts, they are quite vulnerable to elephants, as well as being slow, and they can't skirmish away from HTW troops and others who might be a bad match.

But if you're going phalanx, go all the way. Either buy a bunch or none at all. Unlike other Macedonian/Hellenistic lists, Maccabaeans and Hellenistic Greeks have the added advantage of no pike minimums at all.

[smoke]

2 other questions

1. why 4 generals - is it just to get A class into front rank of shock cavalry or for some other reason - seems expensive

2. why 4 element peltasts instead of 6E (given prior post about 6 vs 4)

thanks again for input
smoke

[Mark Stone]

[Frank Gilson]

Mark makes some good comments...I actually use a battle line of E class skirmishers and the Barbarian blocks...I don't put Peltasts on the line.

Why? Because they're expensive, need to be in big units so much more expensive, and don't actually beat all that much, really.

So...Peltasts should be high morale back up troops in small units, designed to attack enemy flanks once they're stuck to your barbarian blocks...or fill holes when your barbarians are destroyed.

You can actually take 'too many' troops with this list ...normally not a problem.

Here's a sample list from what I've been running, with notes:
CinC Reg A/B EHC L,Sh 167
Sub Reg A/B EHC L,Sh 117
2E Reg B EHC L,Sh 88
Frank - Yes, only two generals...I don't need the extra prompt points for various reasons. They are worth upgrading to shielded EHC for numerous reasons. I'd "like" another EHC unit but they're just too expensive and a 4th should not be necessary.
2 units of 2E Reg B LC JLS,B 92
Frank - useful force marchers...NOTE: do NOT get them angled such that any unit in your army is anywhere behind them ...unless you are a super-expert...otherwise you'll end up with one unable to evade/recall properly, then routing and causing wavers to your C and E class troops.
6 units of 9E Irr C(1 A) LMI JLS,Sh(3)/JLS(6) 564
Frank - as you can see these 6 units are cheap...and are NOT all the javelinmen available on the list (don't try to run them all). They operate two elements wide and 5 ranks deep in order to use the Barbarian infantry rules.
2 units of 12E Irr E LI S 74
Frank - really cheap space holders that your army doesn't care about...just don't look for them to ever do any missile damage to anybody...expect them to die. Don't get meaningful troops of yours 'trapped' behind them, though...that's wasted points. You can march Regulars over if the enemy has serious forces crashing down on them.
3 units of 8E Irr E LMI B 111
Frank - similar units...these are cheap, your army doesn't care about them when they die (no wavers), they hold space...these should be in some really bad terrain like woods or marsh or steep hill (my favorite)...they also won't do any appreciable shooting casualties.
5 units of 2E Reg B LMI LTS,JLS,Sh 290
4E Reg B MI P,Sh 90
These 6 units are your backups. They function as great secondary chargers...or when fighting tired and/or disordered enemy....the little peltast units are great and going through gaps and getting on flanks. The lone pike unit is just to have one that flexibly supports a narrow flank area. Better than anything else at providing some opposition to enemy lancers.
= 1593
22 units, 2 commands, 30 scouting

Cover the entire table width...anchor the otherwise 'airy skirmisher flank' of your barbarians with a nasty terrain feature...and move forward.

Evaluate 'Wait' orders on a command containing the barbarian blocks so they are not forced to make their first charge (likely against enemy LI or LC) impetuous...instead they can approach to 40p to throw javelins. When you think that next bound they really need to make an impetuous charge, you have the general under Wait sound a signal to automatically change to Attack...then the LMI, with Irr A element in front rank, charge unprompted continuously.

FrankG

[smoke]

i appreciate all the great input. as a beginner - approx 20 games under my belt - i feel i have a lot to learn tactically/strategically. please indulge a few possible silly questions

1. as a beginner i have been building my armies as hammers with as much killer stuff as possible. this obviously creates small armies. the army you constructed above seems the exact opposite. the EHC,L,Sh are good but the skirmishers as e are obviously going to die without a whimper as will the E bowmen. why build them if they won't get to do much damage. also, while the irreg javelinmen seem like they can absorb a lot of damage and even dish out some as front row A but ultimately they are fodder (even if the pass waver against mounted. finally the small peltasts are good but so limited in power that it is hard to see how hey ultimately make a difference. is the object to just wear out the enemy with the sheer size of the horde or am i missing something

2. why not upgrade shooters to D and decrease number slightly - is this to avoid waver checks

again thanks for great input

smoke

[Frank Gilson]

Yes, this is a very different sort of army...I fully expect that a skirmishers+lancers army as an opponent for it would crush some lights and barbarian blocks...the latter causing a few wavers. If those wavers are passed, though...the high morale Peltasts and EHC stand ready to reply.

You'll note that I've upgraded the barbarian blocks to Irr C...with some A. That would mean that no lights can be Irr D...they'd have to all be C if I upgraded them...which is why they're E morale. Killing them gives relatively few points to the enemy...and must be done with certain units that cost several times more than them.

If you were willing to have D morale barbarian blocks with a few front rank A elements you could (and I would) upgrade the lights to D as well...but the D to C upgrade is "All/None".

So...wear out the enemy...or don't use this list ...

[smoke]

thank you very much for the valuable lesson. will give it a try

smoke

[smoke]

well i gave the army a try. i am sure i didn't use it to best advantage but it was very interesting. unfortunately opponent brought polybian roman which are pretty hard for this army to beat. rolling down 3 in an impetuous charge didn't help either. still will use again as its size alone scares opponents a little

question do e units have to identify themselves as such when revealing troop types as i notice that they are to be based as showing larger groups or puffs of dust.

smoke

[Frank Gilson]

I don't depict my Es as 'blobs of dust'...I use the actual figures. I simply state that they are what they are without their morale class (Irr loose, or LI).

Then, should they undertake an action (waver, counter) that would depend on their morale class I tell my opponent what it is.

Frank