Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

I had thought that there had been a discussion of interpenetrating more than one body at a time...and I can't find it.

Scott's position at Historicon 2008 was that if the multiple units to be interpenetrated are close enough to "on the same line which is parallel to the rear of the interpenetrating body" then that's ok, all are interpenetrated.

However, if some bodies are stepped back, or there's an angle involved, only the first body met could be interpenetrated, others would prevent the interpenetration or force the interpenetrating body to drop back elements (if a legal gap was available).

Jon, is this all the correct way to think about it?

Frank Gilson

[Ewan McNay]

I thought (and think) this is one of those 'by element' cases - if any element had to interpenetrate more than one body, it caused a problem, otherwise no problem (no limits on simultaneity).

H'Con this year had a *lot* of rules Qs and quirks. The skirmish one mentioned previously was my favourite; closely followed by the meaning of 'move clear' with regard to interpenetrating one end of a 12E unit of LI!

[scott holder]

Ewan: That's a far better way to put it than I did.

I'd swear this issue been's covered here. I know that at some point over the years, I've talked this over with Jon.

scott

[Frank Gilson]

I searched the forums based on 'simultaneous' and 'interpenetrate'...and looked generally across subject headings for a few pages over the last year and a half...didn't find anything, which doesn't mean it isn't there.

Frank

[Mark Stone]

Here's the post I made on this, and Jon's very unambiguous reply; I think this is what you are looking for, Frank (and Scott):

http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16081&highlight=contract

[Frank Gilson]

The crucial line is:
"No body may interpenetrate more than one body in a phase unless the interpenetration is simultaneous or involuntary."

"Simultaneous" is the operating word...and subject to umpire interpretation in actual game situations.

So, units can even be angled whatever which way and be interpenetrated simultaneously if they have at least one point on the same line, that line parallel to the line the interpenetrating troops are moving along.

Otherwise...only the first such body(ies) met can be interpenetrated.

I think I've got it...but I suppose I had better define the lines my troops are on clearly...

Frank

[joncleaves]

Frank's initial post in this thread is correct.

Mark's reference to me answering this before and the answer contained therein is also correct.

J

[chrisbump]

simultaneous when?
Must it be simultaneous at the first moment of interpenetration?
If so, then angled bodies may prove problematic, even if part of the same line.
If simultaneous at the first moment of interpenetration is not required, then the interpenetrating body, if deep enough or if the multiple interpenetrated bodies are close enough togeher could interpenetrate multiple bodies in succession while still interpenetrating them simultaneously.
This rule is vague and necessarily falls back on the very thing that Warrior was supposed to eliminate, the "...well Jon has ruled it this way, or back east they play it this way..."
Chris

[joncleaves]

"simultaneous when"

I honestly do not know any other interpretation of the word simultaneous, other than "occuring at the same time". Is there another meaning of it that I am missing? How is that word vague?

[Frank Gilson]

Chris' question has to do with the definition of 'time' in your definition "occurring at the same time" of 'simultaneous'.

I'm taking it to mean the same exact minimal instant, rather than the same sub-phase or any extended time period.

So...the body interpenetrating more than one body simultaneously interpenetrates only those it first meets at the identical same moment (simultaneous).

Frank

[joncleaves]

The definition of time....

and people wonder why the book is as long as it is....lol

[Frank Gilson]

Considering we don't even know what or why time is, really, that's understandable .

[chrisbump]

it is easy to make jokes about the question, but since a body interpenetrating another body has a footprint, it is possible to have the footprint in two seperate bodies simultaneously and clearly violate the spirit of the rule as you've written it. Thus in order to maintain the spirit of the rule, one must fall back on previous rulings and then you have the age old... "I asked Jon personally and he ruled it this way..." In a given evade or rout move, simutaneous can happen multiple times.

Chris

[joncleaves]

Chris, honestly, if I thought the word simultaneous needed clarification, I'd do it. Have their been spots in the rules where I used unfortunate wording? Sure - and we've fixed them where we have found them. I just don't see how else one can "interpret" simultaneous other than at the same time.

However, as always, if you have wording that makes you more comfortable that does the same thing and does not confuse others, we'll listen to your proposal. Bitching I will mock; sincere proposals I will consider.

It is this company's policy - as it is with many game companies - that the answers given on the official company forum by the rules author have the same force as the rules themselves. If we have one or more such answers that we feel are a collective issue and not just helping one or two guys understand something that is understood by the vast majority, then we will put that in our periodic clarifications.

J

[Frank Gilson]

Chris,

I also must confess not to understand your use of 'simultaneous'.

Very much especially your statement 'simultaneous can happen multiple times'.

No, actually, it can't...simultaneous happens once.

Although I think what you mean is that a body could interpentrate some bodies simultaneously...THEN some more simultaneously...and so on...but that's not what the rule says or how I read it.

Simultaneous is just and only for all the bodies met at the very first moment of interpenetration. No other bodies can be interpenetrated but those such. If there are other bodies not so simultaneously encountered, they either PREVENT the interpenetration from happening at all, or you'll need to point to a defined gap that permits your interpenetrating body to drop back elements and still preserve the simultaneity of the initial interpenetration. Such drop back may of course get elements caught in an evade.

Frank