Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Peter Celella · Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: Roman List Rule Question

Last Sunday at Mr. Low's house, in one game, I was playing Polybian Romans against Dennis' Swiss. Near the end of the game I was foolishly taking on one of Dennis' big 12E pike blocks with 2HCT guys in the front rank with 3 2E units of my Hastasti. (I know, I should have attacked with my peltasts and Spanish loonies through the woods to try and outflank the pikes - but I was so anxious to try the new list rules that I unadvisedly charged head on in with the hastatii). On the second bound of combat, I charged in to replace 2 units with 2 units from the rear of new hastati.

My question on this is:

We counted the 2HCT guys in the front as shielded on this bound, since we interpreted that it was just like a new charge with it being first contact for the Swiss guys in the front. Last night I was reading through my freshly obtained new rulebook (and a wonderful piece of work it is!), and on page 3, under First Contact, it states, "An exception is a body charged by troops replacing others in contact (6.523) - an element charged by replacers does not count as in first contact." So, shouldn't it have been played with the Swiss shieldless and following up (they won the previous bound of combat) and the Romans counting as in first contact with HTW and charging?

Thanks

Peter

John Murphy · Legate Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625

Peter - try this under RULES so Jon sees it sooner

I went thru a length and often-drustrating but finally, I believe, successful effort on this forum a couple years ago now to fully understand the replacement rules, which are core rules not list rules, as they apply to Romans (which is the same method as the core rules except for the troops that get to use replacement)

I believe you are correct but re-post on the RULES forum to get Jon to bless your statement

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Wow, a meeting of the two list rules in public (meaning not in a playtest at my house...lol). Never cross the streams!

The Swiss 2HCT would be shielded and not disordered. You played it correctly. Note that the words 'first contact' do not appear in the Swiss list rule about 2HCT rank exchange.

I also don't *think* the Swiss could have 'won' on the previous bound, since they can only employ this rule when their opponents fail to recoil, break-off or break - but I do not know the whole situation.

John - when it comes to a list rule, its ok to have it here too, although you are correct that it would be better in the Rules topic.

Jon

Peter Celella · Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject:

Jon - you are correct. The Romans did 'win' the first bound of combat, disordering the Swiss. And I wasn't considering the Swiss list rule in my question - sorry. I think I understand the interaction now, and going through the numbers on paper, I can see even more obviously what I huge error I made. It is simply madness to take on such a pike block - even with the Roman interpenetration rules. I certainly won't try something so foolish again.

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Try hitting P with a roman first and then a celtiberian second.... You are Polybian for a reason, yes? Smile

Ewan McNay · Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject:

Peter - like Jon, I don't have the whole scenario in front of me. But... if the Romans won on bound N, then the replacing halberdiers and fresh romans come in on bound N+1, wouldn't that be (per element):

Romans 6 @ 5 +1 charging -1 halberd = 24
Swiss 4 @ 5 -1 disorder = 12, plus 4 @ 2 - 1 disorder = 6, total 18?

So the Romans win again, and are now following up against disordered, shieldless, Swiss? Bound N+2:

Romans 6 @ 3 + 3 (shieldless) +1 (advancing) -1 (halberd) = 30
Swiss 4 @ 5 -1, 4 @ 2 -1, still total 18

I think, offhand, anyway. Now, those Swiss are still not routing, but a +1 in dice by the Romans gives them a waver, as does the Swiss becoming tired. And if you can win against the Swiss pike blocs frontally, a Roman should have no trouble mopping up the Swiss support troops.

Admittedly even Swiss are probably not as expensive as HI Romans with two lines - but still, seems ok for Rome to have this fight.

Peter Celella · Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject:

"Peter - like Jon, I don't have the whole scenario in front of me. But... if the Romans won on bound N, then the replacing halberdiers and fresh romans come in on bound N+1, wouldn't that be (per element):

Romans 6 @ 5 +1 charging -1 halberd = 24
Swiss 4 @ 5 -1 disorder = 12, plus 4 @ 2 - 1 disorder = 6, total 18?

So the Romans win again, and are now following up against disordered, shieldless, Swiss? Bound N+2:

Romans 6 @ 3 + 3 (shieldless) +1 (advancing) -1 (halberd) = 30
Swiss 4 @ 5 -1, 4 @ 2 -1, still total 18

I think, offhand, anyway. Now, those Swiss are still not routing, but a +1 in dice by the Romans gives them a waver, as does the Swiss becoming tired. And if you can win against the Swiss pike blocs frontally, a Roman should have no trouble mopping up the Swiss support troops.

Admittedly even Swiss are probably not as expensive as HI Romans with two lines - but still, seems ok for Rome to have this fight."

Ewan - yes, I think you have it right. But at this point, in my game, I now had 5 2E Roman units disordered (each took 3 CPF). I'm not sure if Dennis rolled up, or if we didn't count him as disordered after the first bound that I 'won'. (Dennis, if you are reading this, do you remember how it played out?)

If I read the list rules correctly, on the first combat bound, if the win went to the Romans, the pike-armed Swiss would have been disordered instead of recoiling. If the front rank was initially 2HCT armed instead, then the Swiss would have recoiled, not disordered, correct? And if so, wouldn't the halberds then have counted shieldless to the replacing Romans. Or if pike subsequently moved up to replace the halberds, wouldn't they have been shieldless also at this point? I know that on that second bound we counted none of the Swiss shieldless.

Hmm.... I wish I could remember exactly how this all played out.

Is it that the if the Swiss were pike armed, lost and were disordered, then the 2HCT came to front, counting shielded to the replacing Romans and not disordered?

But you're right Ewan - the Romans can at stand toe-to-toe with the Swiss for at least 2-3 bounds, and if I had played it more sensibly, my support troops should have been able to defeat the Swiss support troops.

"Try hitting P with a roman first and then a celtiberian second.... You are Polybian for a reason, yes?"

Jon - good point. I was too busy trying to work out the Roman circulating combat rules I guess to consider this. If I have a matchup like this again, I think that instead, I will try to put as many woods as possible on the board and send the Celtiberians and peltasts through those in an attempt to outflank the pike blocks.

Any which way, win or lose, I am enjoying this list. Now, I just need to collect and paint the 25mm lead (we were playing in 15mm) in time for the Historicon 2007 theme - the Punic Wars.

Ewan McNay · Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:

Peter said:

Mark Stone · Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject:

OGS-Vintage · Recruit Joined: 03 Oct 2008 Posts: 34

Pardon an old war dog, but why do HTW cop -1 against 2HCT?

OGS-Vintage · Recruit Joined: 03 Oct 2008 Posts: 34

Pardon an old war dog, but why do HTW cop -1 against 2HCT?

OGS-Vintage · Recruit Joined: 03 Oct 2008 Posts: 34

Correct me if I am wrong - but why does HTW suffer -1 vs 2HCT?

Ed Kollmer · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1018

Yo Peter
Good to hear from you. Someday we will meet. Matt has been trying for a while.
Anyway, thanks for the question. I play EIR sometimes and am always interested in the Roman list circulating rule and see how it works. I also thank Jon and Ewan for the break down and hints.
Actually, I might use a variation of that Celtiberian with my Hoplites that I will hopefully bring to the Council.
Ed the hopefully Rash Spartan

Ed Kollmer · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1018

Yo Peter
Good to hear from you. Someday we will meet. Matt has been trying for a while.
Anyway, thanks for the question. I play EIR sometimes and am always interested in the Roman list circulating rule and see how it works. I also thank Jon and Ewan for the break down and hints.
Actually, I might use a variation of that Celtiberian with my Hoplites that I will hopefully bring to the Council.
Ed the hopefully Rash Spartan

Frank Gilson · Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: correcting the math...

Fixing up the math here...with 1/3rd the troops...

Units:
2 Roman of 2 elements of HI HTW,Sh (116 total points)
1 Swiss of 6 elements of LHI/LMI/LMI/LMI/LHI/LMI Px4/2HCTx2 (134-ish)

Bound 1 -
one Roman unit charges the Swiss unit which is also charging
Roman is 6 at HTW(5) +1(charge) for 30 casualties (without dice diff)
Swiss is 12 at P(2) +1(charge) for 30 casualties...

Roman disordered...Swiss swaps up 2HCT element while Roman 2nd unit charges through to replace.

Bound 2 -
Roman is 6 at HTW(5) +1(charge) for 30 casualties
Swiss is 4 at 2HCT(5) and 4 at P(2) for 24 casualties

Swiss recoil (although not disordered because P are not in the front rank). Romans disordered and presumably follow up and exchange ranks per circulating combatants for:

Bound 3 -
Roman is 4 at HTW(5) and 2 at 1HCW(3) both +1(followup) +2(shieldless LHI) and 1HCW at -1(2HCT) -2(disorder) for 35 casualties
Swiss is 4 at 2HCT(5) and 4 at P(2) for 24 casualties

Swiss recoil...Romans will need to have the now ordered unit behind the whole thing charge through again...

Without a good die roll for the Romans, the Swiss don't get disordered or routed. The Romans would like that die roll on the initial contact in order to disorder...but of course the Swiss could get a good die roll also.

Frank