Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

kevinrounsaville · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Byzantines

I have just recently picked up the startings of a Byzantine army, and the Holy warrior lists. Looking over it all I am leaning toward the Komnenan Byzantines Middle period. What, if any, suggestions are out there as to army composition. It is a rather daunting list with all of the options. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Frank Gilson · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: Komnenan

You want armored lancers...and a good skirmish screen...plus Varangians as Irr B LHI...and pretty much nothing else (probably some Reg LMI shooters.)

You want to use superior screening and skirmishing to defeat enemy lights and pin the parts of the heavier enemy troops you don't wish to fight.

You then direct your lancers and varangians to the part of the enemy army you do wish to fight.

Your opponent will attempt to stop you Wink

...

Throw in some dense shooting as available and appropriate.

Frank

wargame692000 · Recruit Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 34

You might try the later period list if your figures can stretch to Knights. LHI varagians plus HKs are a nice hitting combination. A mix of reg LC, LI and double armed LMI skirmishers should allow you to find a place for the franks and varangians to do some damage.
Possibly the only downside with the list is that there are quite a number of minimums. One of them is MC. However there can be mixed with HKs and can make effective and cheap units.
Plus the history of this period is interesting.

Cheers
Paul Collins.

Ed Kollmer · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1018

Yo
Having dappled with Byzantine for a while , I think Frank as usual has hit it on the head.
I have never played that list. I usually play the Nike Byz. But the few lists I have made fromit follow Franks lines.
Mark Stone had a very good evaluation of the Varangians a while ago.
Ed K

scott holder · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject:

I'm pretty sure Mark Stone has opined on this, many times and at great length. It might be buried in the archives.

scott

Frank Gilson · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: Varangians

Here's how you use the Varangians...which Mark has in fact written about:
They should be in 4 element units, starting in column. 2HCW,JLS,Sh 1st and 3rd ranks, JLS,Sh 2nd and 4th ranks.

Nikephoran should have one unit of SHC L,Sh (and is required to do so.)

Against the following targets send the Varangians in alone:
Elephants (support this attack with bowfire)

Against the following targets send the lancers in first, then the Varangians (who may expand at this point two elements wide to inflict maximal casualties):
Infantry who lancers readily defeat (Irr LMI JLS,Sh, etc.)

Against the following targets send the SHC in AND the Varangians in (SHC non-impetuous):
pikemen or similar (hoplites, etc.)

Frank

Ed Kollmer · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1018

Yo
thanks Frank . As always, you give clear instructions. I will do that with the SHC and the Varangians.
Beware everyone. Ed the uncertain. Is morphing into Ed the Rash.
Ed the morphing

chrisbump · Recruit Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 62

Unless the lists have errata that I am not aware of, the Nike's are not required to take a unit of shc with L and shield. It is an option to replace some of your lanceers with them, but then you have to buy more lancers.

I am from the camp that your lancers should all be bow armed and the cats cannot be.

The cats are good against some infantry types but don't fare well and are a very poor point exchange if they have to mix it up with other armored lance armed cav.

Cats have a poor range of impact. If x rules are in affect your EHC L,B,Sh are a better buy because they can skirmish and hit with 5 figures at the same factors that the Cats bring only 6 figures for.

Cats cannot expand after a winning combat.
If Cats go impetuous they only get the +1 initially versus the other lancers getting the plus 2.

I know that there are proponents for their use and Ewan certainly uses them with his Sassanids, but with Byzantines it is alot of points for a strike unit that has minimal flexibility.

Chris

Ed Kollmer · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1018

Yo Chris
I like your evaluation of the SHC. I always thought I didn't get more out of them because I wasn't a strong player (which is true), but it is nice to know that it wasn't all Me. I am going to try what Frank mentioned about the SHC and Varangian.
The x rule about having EHC shirmish is very interesting. It really gives them an added importance. I had never played with it. I always found that since they couldn't skirmish I couldn't just move them out, because there was no way to bring them back.
thanks again for the insight.
Ed the Byzantinophile kollmer

Mark Stone · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject:

Ed Kollmer · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1018

Yo Mark
Thanks for the break down
Now I know why I keep your evaluations.
Ed the avid learner Kollmer

kevinrounsaville · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:25 am Post subject:

Thanks to you all I have an idea of what to do with this list now. I am excited about it, it is an interesting army and period.

Frank Gilson · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: yup...

Nikephoran is probably the way to go if you want to exploit the skirmisher doctrine...and a very interesting list.

The main challenge is that there are many ways to 'miss-buy' the list.

Frank

kevinrounsaville · Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:06 am Post subject:

I'll post a first draft for you all to critique

chrisbump · Recruit Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 62

We barely play around here any more, and I likely have this wrong, but Mark's suggestion that the Cats charge in concert with the Varangians as part of the Byzantine strategem.

is this legal?

I thought that infantry and cav could only charge the same target if both were impetuous.

If my recollection is correct then there is only two ways that the Cats are going in impetuous which will change the calculations for pike vs impet mounted and the +1 for the cats going impet. That aside, either the Cats are going to have to watch a general in line of command charge impetuously which requires more set up and of course the risk of a general or a General joins the Cats and declares the unit impetuouslly.

My recall of the list is that there is no possibility for a general being bought as part of a Cat unit. I could be wrong there too.

So, unless I have the rule wrong (quite possible) either the Cats are charging with a HC or EHC front (General's element) facing the pike or the Cats and Varangians are going to have to time their charge more closely to a General in line of command for the Cats also charging some appropriate target.

Also as Mark was making his calculations for the EHC battle, he neglected to add in the support fire from the charging EHC. this would only add 5 more hits at an even roll but now the damage out is 51 vs the pike 52.

In the case of the Cats charging impetuously (my assumption made on my recollection of the rules) the cats would put out 18 hits (3 @ 7) and the Pike would put out 24 (additional +1 for steady p vs impet mounted)
So the Pike puts out 44 and the Byzantines put out 44. A wash and the all of Marks points for follow up combat in the second phase vs the EHC scenario kick in.

Of course I could be wrong and the Cats might be able to charge, non impetuously, in concert with the Varangians.

If I am correct in my math and add to the fact that the EHC option is less expensive and more flexible, I would take the EHC option. Of further interest, the EHC option offers greater charge range which opens up possibilites for more flank charges.

Am I wrong in my recollection of the rules?

Chris