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highland barbarians

 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:10 am    Post subject: highland barbarians

Feeling that since i bought it i ought to figure out some way to use it, i have scoured the biblical warrior lists for a usable army. the best i have come up with is the highland barbarians. they have the advantages of massive numbers of cheap troops , many of which hit pretty hard and who do well in terrain. they obviously have the huge disadvantage of no cavalry. please critique freely this list before i use it so i can work out some kinks (or just scrap it altogether)-be brutally honest.

cinc irrB lmi,2hcw, jls, b + 5E IrrB, lmi, 2hcw, jls, b 171 pts
subG irrB lmi,2hcw, jls, b + 5E IrrB, lmi, 2hcw, jls, b 121 pts
subG irrB lmi,2hcw, jls, b + 5E IrrB, lmi, 2hcw, jls, b 121 pts

axemen 6E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, 1/2 jls 70 pts
axemen 6E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, 1/2 jls 70 pts
axemen 6E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, 1/2 jls 70 pts

javelinmen 8E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 109 pts
javelinmen 8E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 109 pts
javelinmen 8E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 109 pts
javelinmen 4E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 67 pts
javelinmen 4E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 67 pts
javelinmen 8E IrrC,JLS 73 pts
javelinmen 8E IrrC,JLS 73 pts
javelinmen 8E IrrC,JLS 73 pts
javelinmen 8E IrrC,JLS 73 pts

skirmishers 6E IrrC LI, JLS 49pts
skirmishers 6E IrrC LI, JLS, D 61 pts
archers 6E (1E IrrC, 5E IrrD) LI, B 39 pts
archers 6E (1E IrrC, 5E IrrD) LI, B 39 pts
slingers 8E IrrD, LI, S 41 pts

1595 pts in 3 commands, Scouting Points 16
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Did you take into consideration the Barbarian Rules when putting this together? I would think you'd want units sizes being a minimum of 9E units for your shock infantry. Moreover, the Barbarian Rules provide for eagerness for Irr C troops in certain circumstances which helps your foot blocks immensely given that they're bound to have bundles of unease causes on the table.

If you happen to be playing somebody who doesn't want to use the Barbarian Rules, tell em they should. Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject:

we have discussed it. we have resisted all the x rules however up to now. that being said i felt like this army could hold its own against many armies without x rules. it has good morale and decent weapons. also it is large enough that the entire first rank can be good morale with a back rank of irrC. it has decent missile fire and decent skirmishers. its big weakness is the morale checks against mounted which can be helped by good terrain use such that only the irrB's need to take morale checks. i felt that this was a decent army on its own without x rules

bruce
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject:

Since the Barbarian Rules are listed in the army list book, don't look at them as X Rules--they are there for a reason. If you and your playing partners don't want to use them, well, that's kinda like saying "we're not using the Roman Rules in the Polybian list." Again, your decision.

What follows assumes you won't use the Barbarian Rules.

You're almost always going to be outscouted, thus, you need to have the army organized in such a way that it effectively counterpunches. Or setup in such a way as you can move things around. Both are exceedingly hard to do with an army of Irr foot.

The biggest problem with the list as constructed is that virtually all of your units can be pinned. One way around this is to purchase several high morale 2E units that act as the vanguard, charging first in an attempt to pin the other guy, then roll in with larger blocks. That being said, those Irr C blocks are gonna have a tough time getting impetuous charges off because of the lack of army standard and the expectation that your opponent will have a variety of unease causing troop types.

All those LI Javelinmen aren't giving you a whole lot. Yes, you need a plethora of skirmishes, force marched, just to keep all your opponents from pinning you along your baseline and picking their point of attack. But these guys aren't going to do much and the Irr B upgrade isn't a cost-effective use of points. I'd get the minimum 8E and have them hold a woods for the game. Your skirmishers should be the Archers and Slingers. Plenty to choose from and dirt cheap.

The meat of the army should be based around small units (2E) of high morale grades (Irr B) to give you *some* maneuverability, at least in the context of what little this list provides. Then build larger Warrior blocks with 1E of Irr A, the rest Irr C. Now you're effectively never uneasy. Those 2E units are the ones that attack first, pin, then you go in with the larger blocks. What I don't recall is the optimum unit size for the larger blocks in a pre-Barbarian Rules world. You don't want them too big because the tendency is to keep them in two ranks and if you provide too much frontage, higher tech opponents will have a field day slamming into you. Better to have a unit with a frontage no more than 3E wide.

You can put together very cost effective Warrior blocks in that you can have shieldless Irr C in the back ranks. For example, a 6E unit would consist of:

1E Irr A LMI 2HCW, JLS, Sh (front rank)
2E Irr C LMI 2HCW, JLS, Sh (front rank)
3E Irr C LMI JLS (rear rank)

Unit cost: 85 points. And for this 85 points, you have a unit that elephants will avoid like the plague, that has decent shock value against most infantry at first contact....and you can have a bajillion of them. Again, the only variable here is the size of the unit. I can't remember if 6E or 8E is optimal. Either way.

Note I don't say anything about Darts. I'm not sure how useful they are although the ability to support shoot helps but it might not be enough capability to offset the point expenditure. Hopefully somebody else can weigh in on this.

Then, you have a slew of 2E Irr B LMI 2HCW, JLS, 1/2 Sh units in between the blocks. Screen it in front with a mass of Archers and Slingers.

Oh, take the Conquest Period so you can get your generals on chariots. Unease cause, slightly more maneuverable and they can still join units at will. Single element generals.

scott

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Highland Barbarians

Yo
I don't know it this helped anyone else, but it did help me look at some of my army lists. Not that I use barrbarians. But the general overview of frontage and skirmishing and unease helped me understand things a little better and for me to remember things I had forgotten.
thanks Scott.
Ed the forgetful
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject:

thanks for great input. i am not sure all of it is possible based on the list however, but i will use what is. for example the only irrA 2hcw troops allowed are bodyguards which can only be with generals. all other 2hcw troops are irrC-no upgrade possible. i did make many of the javelinmen front rank irrB to prevent unease as much as possible. also no chariots are possible.

thanks

smoke
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:31 am    Post subject:

here is a rework using non barbarian rules. again i used all possible legal suggesions except i kept the javelinmen and kep some of the darts

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject:

oops here it is

cinc irrB lmi,2hcw, jls, b + 4E IrrB, lmi, 2hcw, jls, b , 1E IrrA lmi, 2hcw, jls, b 174 pts
subG irrB lmi,2hcw, jls, b + 4E IrrB, lmi, 2hcw, jls, b, 1E IrrA lmi, 2hcw, jls, b 124 pts
subG irrB lmi,2hcw, jls, b + 4E IrrB, lmi, 2hcw, jls, b,1E IrrA lmi, 2hcw, jls, b 124 pts

axemen 2E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, jls 40 pts
axemen 2E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, jls 40 pts
axemen 2E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, jls 40 pts
axemen 6E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, jls 70 pts
axemen 6E IrrC, lmi,2HCW, jls 70 pts


javelinmen 8E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 109 pts
javelinmen 8E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 109 pts
javelinmen 4E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 67 pts
javelinmen 4E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 67 pts
javelinmen 4E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 67 pts
javelinmen 4E 1/2IrrB, 1/2IrrC,D,JLS 67 pts
javelinmen 8E IrrC,JLS 73 pts
javelinmen 8E IrrC,JLS 73 pts


skirmishers 6E IrrC LI, JLS 49pts
skirmishers 6E IrrC LI, JLS 49 pts
archers 6E (1E IrrC, 5E IrrD) LI, B 39 pts
archers 6E (1E IrrC, 5E IrrD) LI, B 39 pts
slingers 6E IrrD, LI, S 37 pts
slingers 6E IrrD, LI, S 37 pts
slingers 6E IrrD, LI, S 37 pts

1601 pts in 3 commands, Scouting Points 21
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject:

Um, I'm not sure where you're getting the "illegal" suggestions idea from. *Everything* I suggested was legal. Not sure which Highland Barbarian list you're reading but if it's not the one downloaded from this site, that might explain a few things.

Irr B Warriors can be upgraded to Irr A, no "just bodyguard" restriction. Very clear.

No limitations (other than numbers allowed) of Irr B armed with 2HCW.

Chariots are *clearly* possible. In fact, in the Conquest Period, they are *required*.

Again, I'm not sure what you're reading but it's not the same list as I have.

Moreover, you refer to "Javelinmen". There is no troop type with the name "Javellinmen" in #6 Highland Barbarians. Now, there are "Skirmishers" who are armed with JLS. To make things clearer, you might want to give the line items names in the list to what you're tossing out here.

Again, lemme reiterate, the Barbarian Rules are not X Rules, they are in an official (albeit still technically in playtest) publication. I should also reiterate that what you do in the privacy of your own home is your bidness so if you want to cherry pick material, that's your call.

Now, back to the second list.

Those 2E Irr C guys won't cut it for the role I described above. They need to be Irr B. Otherwise, you'll have a helluva time ever getting them to charge (expect unease everywhere you look). The 0-1/2 upgrade of Warriors to Irr B shouldn't be hard to manage. Think of it this way, for every 8E of Warriors you buy, 4E can be Irr B. Of those 4E, 2E will be in the unit I describe above. A third will be in the 6E or 8E unit I describe above, then further upgraded to Irr A. You're not even at 1/2 yet.

Again, all perfectly legal.

As for armament, every Warrior front ranker should have 2HCW, obviously with the restrictions of 0-18. I haven't looked carefully at how to compose the list in terms of how many 2E units you have to 6E/8E units but let's say you have five 2E units, that leaves you 13E for the other blocks thus you could put together four 6E Warrior blocks with a front rank 2HCW and JLS. You could squeeze a fifth 6E block out of this (again, not sure if that's optimal) by dropping one 2E unit and integrating a Sub-general into that unit.

In 25mm, this might provide good table coverage. In 15mm, I'm not so sure. I'd think you'd want more units as described above. Perhaps not. Instead, you pick tons of delaying terrain to cut down the table and toss your otherwise useless Skirmishers in there to hold it for 3-4 hours while you try to force the battle elsewhere.

Generals should still be on Battle Carts (except as I just noted).

Also, shields for front ranks. Sure, 2HCW eventually counts shieldless in combat but you really want those shields to protect against shooting. Shieldless LMI, particularly in smallish blocks as you're using here, are simply screaming "SHOOT ME NOW A MILLION TIMES!!!!!!!" And you're likely to face opponents, in period and out, who have a heavy shooting component. Furthermore, by being shieldless, you're giving up a large amount of your impetuous "oomph" when hitting a target that can support shoot at you coming in. You need to hit hard and the potential for getting minuses on your combat factors because of support shooting when all you needed was to expend 3 pts per element for front rank shields, well, that's probaby stopping your charges before they ever get started. And don't forget the waver test potential in Prep shooting. Again, with no shields, opponents will be looking to angle their shots and "gang up" on one or two units per bound just to make you take waver tests.

I'm still unsure about darts. Their only effect in your list will be if you're caught standing and have to support shoot. One train of thought is that if you're caught standing, you're losing and the darts ain't gonna help. OTOH, the support shot by a dart might just be the difference between the unit breaking if caught standing. This will most likely come down to how many points you have to work with after you concoct the core Warrior component and necessary LI component.

I think your LI component is fine except for the fact you're buying two units of Skirmishers. My knee jerk reaction is you just buy one 8E unit (the required) but I can see where two units of some size would be useful as described above (slowing down opponents in woods).

Kudos for working on this list. It would have been cool to see it at Hcon last year in the Theme.

Now if you would just look at it with the Barbarian Rules in mind. Some of the same concepts apply but you would have very potent and cost effective infantry blocks to wield.

scott

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject:

I was rereading the new Bibical lists, due to this post and realised that a lot of the lists that can be given darts limit the range to 40p. This seems usable for close order infantry. But with loose order troops if they are armed with JLS it has the same range. The only advantage I can see is that you can support shoot with them prior to contact and I am not sure if they are then worth the point expendature. Am I interpretating this corrrectly or am I way off base?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject:

sorry, i did not realize that biblical warrior had been redone and wa available formdownload. i will download it asap. thank you for your in depth comments. i greatly appreciate your help. i will re-work the list using your comments.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject:

You are reading the darts correctly. Very limited range which makes them in effect a support shooting only weapon, hence why I continue to vacilate over their value. If the difference between arming units with darts is let's say a LI unit that gets you more screening capability and prevents you from being outscouted by everybody except the Mongols, then yeah, darts probably aren't worth it. If you have enough points to arm em with darts and not give up any core portions of the list, you're almost always going to have enough support shooting to knock cav opponents down 1 coming into combat. Not sure if that's enough or again, worth it, but that's the decision point.

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