Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

The barbarian rules state 1/3 elements in ranks 3 and 4 get to fight (when appropriate)...which I've just thought to myself is very different from 1/3 of the FIGURES able to fight...so, as follows, what is correct?

One element wide body loose order :
2 elements fill ranks 3 and 4, and 6 figures...so 1/3 of the elements is 2/3 elements, is this rounded up? down? if down then no figures fight...if up then 1 element fights (3 figures)...but if we had divided the figures, and not the elements...we'd have gotten 2 figures fighting (which is what we would have gotten if we multiplied out 2/3 of an element against 3 figures from an element of loose order, giving 2 figures fighting...so perhaps we don't round elements but carry the fraction forward?)

However then let's look at close order foot (where 4 figures doesn't divide by 3 particularly well).

One element wide body close order :
2 elements fill ranks 3 and 4, but 8 figures...1/3 of the elements is 2/3 elements...if we round up that's 1 element fighting, or 4 figures. If we just carry the 2/3 along and multiply that out by the 4 figures in 1 close order element we get 8/3 which is 2 and 2/3 figures fighting (assuming we round up as we generally do with fractional figures fighting) that's only 3 figures.

Multiple elements wide bodies have similar problems here and there.

Frank

[scott holder]

Take what it says literally. If you don't have 1/3 element(s) that can fight, they don't.

Deliberate. Very deliberate.

scott

[Frank Gilson]

So, what you mean to say is that fractional elements round off?

So...if I have 2/3 element I have Zero?
If I have 1 and 1/3 element I have One?
Thus, a column of barbarian foot get no figures fighting from 3rd and 4th rank (because they have only 2/3 of an element)...this also applies to a barbarian foot unit that only hits a target one wide, no matter how wide the foot unit is...which seems horrible.

Then, a two wide barbarian foot unit has 4 elements in the 3rd and 4th ranks, by one third becomes 4/3 or 1 and 1/3, which means then that 1 element fights (3 or 4 figures depending on order).

Finally, a three wide barbarian foot unit could have 6 elements in the 3rd and 4th ranks, by one third becomes 2 elements fighting...(6 or 8 figures).

I'm just looking, for avoidance of any doubt, exactly how it works.

[scott holder]

If you don't have a three element frontage, you're getting nothing.

Deliberately done as to avoid the stuff you're describing. I remember well going thru this process in the early stages.

scott

[Frank Gilson]

Definitely not how 'folks' have generally been playing it? (who have just been dividing figures up, inspired generally by the figures-fractions-round-up rule).

Note that many of the opponents Barbarians are concerned with get to choose the frontage of impact that the Barbarian unit will enjoy...thus, with any Roman army, or any lancer army, I can ensure that your Barbarians never fight with any figures from a 3rd or 4th rank...is that what you intended?

A barbarian unit even when able to charge an enemy target of many types starts out losing even if you gave them 2 or 3 figures fighting (loose or close order) from a 3rd of 4th rank on one element's frontage.

I would strongly recommend a careful examination of the math again, comparing dividing actual figures by 1/3 and rounding up against dividing elements by 1/3 and rounding down.

Without an appropriate number of such extra figures fighting on one or two elements frontage, I consider Barbarian foot nearly as useless as it was before we added these rules.

Frank

[scott holder]

Oh well. We have very good reasons for the way it's structured.

scott

[Frank Gilson]

got it...so then the strategy to employ against anyone using deep barbarian foot units is to hit them with units that each separately contact on only a one element basis, thus preventing any 3rd or 4th rank elements from fighting (as each melee contact against different opposing units is handled separately for purpose of numbers of figures/elements eligible to fight).

Frank

[scott holder]

And the alternative would have been a bunch of goofy barbarian foot formations that had no basis in reality.

Now, given what you've just described, it's possible we can look at this and think of a way to still make those ranks/elements "count" and still preserve the formation we want.

scott

[Frank Gilson]

I think we may be talking past one another...perhaps.

Let me walk through the Barbarian foot rule...
All such units wishing to fight from a 3rd or 4th rank MUST have 9, 10, 11, or 12 elements in the unit...regardless of the frontage they occupy (1, 2, 3, or so elements wide).

That requires said units to be 'large'.

No elements in the units anywhere can be armed with HTW AND 'other' or 2HCT. This avoids excessive factors from occurring from too many figures.

1st and 2nd ranks of the body are all armed with some hth weapon other than SA and/or IPW. This requires a 'real' weapon for the main fighting figures.

At least one element in the 3rd and 4th ranks of the body must also be so armed...giving more strictures on appropriate construction and organization of such a unit and its elements. (AND perhaps our point of confusion)

At least one element is C morale grade or better. A similar appropriate constraint.

A body satisfying all of these is then to get 1/3 of the 3rd and 4th rank elements able to fight. Our discussion in this forum thread is that they round down....which leads to:

9E column of Irr C LMI JLS,Sh entirely satisfies all the noted rules. However, 1/3 round down of 3rd and 4th rank elements of this unit is ZERO elements fighting, thus no figures contributing...which is my objection.

Note that the rules themselves stated above disqualify a 9E column with only IPW or SA as hth weapons in the 3rd OR 4th rank from getting ANY 3rd or 4th rank figures fighting...which is fine.

I believe that the following rules line should be restated:
"An Irr close/loose order foot body greater than 8 elements fights with 1/3 3rd and 4th ranks of elements directly behind those eligible to fight if the body meets all the following requirements:"

Should instead read -
"An Irr close/loose order foot body greater than 8 elements fights with 1/3 3rd and 4th rank FIGURES (round a fractional figure up) directly behind those eligible to fight if the body meets all the following requirements:"

This brings the Barbarian foot rules eligibility for figures fighting into line with how we calculate other figures able to fight (take the fraction in figures, not elements, and round up).

This would lead, for properly composited units, to the following 3rd and 4th rank figures fighting:
Column of at least 9E loose order foot = 2 figures
Column of at least 9E close order foto = 3 figures
Two element wide block of at least 9E loose order foot = 4 figures
Two element wide block of at least 9E close order foot = 6 figures
Three element wide block of 12E loose order foot = 6 figures
Three element wide block of 12E close order foot = 8 figures

Note that the rules are even more restrictive than you may have intended! If such a body has NO 4th rank, then it cannot fight with ANY extra figures from the 3rd rank...because it is required to have at least one 4th rank element with hth weapon other than SA or IPW.

Give this a read...and see what you think. My mental look at the combat math suggests this is ok...but I do confess to not have run thruogh exhaustive cases on paper.

Frank

[Ed Kollmer]

Yo
I am following this thread. I am painting on and off a Pict Army with Matt. I never played the barbarian rules but now I am interested in how it works and especially in relation to the Picts.
Ed the Pict.

[Frank Gilson]

Ok......take a look over in the Tactics section, Ed, where I have started up a Picts post for you...which is where such a discussion belongs.

Frank