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Taking a long look at Berber - 1st of many from Kaeser

 
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Taking a long look at Berber - 1st of many from Kaeser

Greetings fellow WARRIOR gamers. After taking about 6 months away from Warrior I’ve decided to get back into the swing of things. I have decided to post a rendition of a list from one of the many Warrior books about every 2 weeks on the Forum. My hope it to spur interest in the hobby again by being a regular poster to this Forum. I will be taking a look at some of the less popular lists (or non "killer" lists) and throw it out there in 1600 points and sometimes 1200 points.

I will also try to rate them on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a strictly a “fun” army while 10 being one of the best armies and NICT championship worthy. I’m assuming that a 5 is being a fun army that is also tournament worthy. Once again feel free to disagree and submit your own rating.

The purpose in all of this is to generate discussion, so feel free to voice you opinion and/or submit your variety of army list for that particular army. We do have some gamers with some excellent opinions and experience and I would love to hear what they have to say in comparison to my thoughts. I’m far from an expert, but I have been gaming in 6th, 7th, and Warrior since 1985 and have been around the block so to speak.

I have always enjoyed making lists to see what an army would look like, but there is nothing like conventions. I always love tournaments & conventions because I get to see different ways to run an army and it gives me new ideas. This might be a cheaper substitute  or more regular one (except for those in the Deep South who game weekly… please detect the jealously). I also love looking at the armies on the table, but we can’t do that here I guess. I’ll also put in my 2 cents for how I would run the army and its strengths and weaknesses and all that.


Berber – Holy Warrior – list 15 (Late Period) 1600 pts – check the corrections on the FHE site, it makes a huge difference in the list.

CinC 2E Ir B HC L,Sh + PA (160)

5E Berber Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,Sh (85)
4E Berber Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,Sh (73)

6E Berber Spearmen Reg C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (130)
6E Berber Spearmen Reg C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (130)
6E Berber Spearmen Reg C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (130)

6E Berber Bowmen Reg C LMI B,Sh (106)
6E Berber Bowmen Reg C LMI B,Sh (106)

4E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh (49)
4E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh (49)

Christian Sub 2E IR B EHK/HK L,Sh (118)
2E Christian Cavalry Ir B EHK/HK L,Sh (103)
2E Christian Cavalry Ir B EHK/HK L,Sh (103)

2E Christian Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls, 1/2Sh (52)
2E Christian Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls, 1/2Sh (52)
2E Christian Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls, 1/2Sh (52)

6E Christian Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls, 1/2Sh (106)

Total points 1604
Scouting: 33
17 units

I have always been interested in many of the Arab armies. It stretches back a long time from a convention when I saw an army stretched out on the table all in white, riding camels and all that good stuff. I’ve played Berber (even in the NICT) and think that it is a decent army overall. In my battles I have tried the spearmen as irregular, but I think regular is the way to go (I’ll explain more later). When I ran them in the NICT the corrections had not come out and the army had a ton of lights in it and there were not all that effective – especially in 25mm where the table is “smaller”. This list is designed for 25mm because if I were to run this list in 15mm I would have used the Ghuzz Mercenaries.

What makes this army tick? The spearmen are solid foot. Being regular they are much more maneuverable on the table and counter more effectively providing gaps for the moogs and knights – which is how the army would work under my generalship. While they can not take on pike frontally or legions they can hold there own in most situations having LTS and javelins. Elephants do not like them at all. The knights and moogs are there to deal with what the spearmen cannot. While they cannot go impetuous being regular that is not their purpose IMO.

The lights are very below average (especially the light horse) and should force-march to provide the army space and then the LC will try to survive or be an opportunist if faced by light infantry. One should be careful using them as they can get stuck in certain situations and then die leaving your flanks open.

When I ran the army the last time I did not use the Bowmen which I believe are key for the army to work effectively. They can aid the light horse and guard the flanks of the main strike force. They are regular, which mean maneuverable, and can dish out some decent shooting. These are some of my favorite troop types to be honest.

The Christian contingent is also very solid. While not SHK they are at least EHK with HK backs which make them very cost effective – 103 points for a knight unit is a nice investment IMO. The knights and moogs are designed to come through the gaps of the spear and wreck havoc and the spear are to follow up. The 6E unit of moogs is more difficult to handle for me – I have not played with barbarian foot often. They can dominate a wood or be part of your front line depending upon what you are facing. They are susceptible to enemy cavalry, but can really pack a punch in a unit that size. I have debated swapping them with another unit of Spanish knights – I guess a personal preference choice.

The generals both have bodyguards and the Sub at least is to be used as a regular unit. I used the bodyguard cavlary for the CinC as I wanted it to be Irreg B and and not a C upgrade from the Berber cavalry. I also don't think they should be Irreg A as that would render them much less controllable. I don’t like having generals that are non-combatants. Once again a personal preference point. The CinC is most likely used as either an opportunist (hitting disordered enemies or flanks) or as a last ditch/last turn charger. With the morale of the army being mostly “C” grade you don’t want him to die.

Terrain: I would try to limit the board as you are going to be fighting along a more limited space. Steep hills, woods, marsh, etc… depending upon your opponent should be placed to limit frontage. You have some light infantry to occupy that space and LI Jls,Sh is tough to dislodge in rough terrain and your moogs would also work well there if need be. You don’t want to spread out too far as you need the Spanish contingent as a second line and I believe they should be placed along the back edge of the table during set up with the Berbers in the front line. A MWF isn’t too bad as well as you can use boats.

I would most likely force-march the spearmen as well – depending upon your opponent and them along with the lights should cover the board for the most part during deployment.

On my rating scale I would place this army as a solid 6-7. It has some major weaknesses in its light composition and can be a fragile army with its morale as well. The Berber contingent is also a little fragile as it has 10 units (being even number it breaks on a 5 which would happen from time to time especially with the lights – see reminder about being careful with them). 17 units is also pretty fair for an army with many irregular units.

Well – there are my thoughts on Berber. Feel free to agree or disagree. If you have used them before then please submit your own list and make comments as well.

Respectfully,

Todd Kaeser

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Berber

I'd agree that Todd's version of Berber here is likely the best you can get from the list.

It isn't, however, exactly a 'Berber' list Wink...given the solid amount of troops available elsewhere/allied. The main valuable contribution from Berbers are the LTS,JLS infantry.

This army does have some problems against pike, in that HI front rank pikemen will ruin the Berber spearmen...and have a narrow enough frontage to make it rough to properly employ the almughavars in secondary charges. Pike able to charge moogs are relatively happy to do so (and can unless uneasy, which this army doesn't cause).

Thus, as Todd states, you want to break of the table and secure flanks with terrain...but your Berber spearmen then will telegraph their deployment by the remaining open frontage.

Todd does hit on a solid tactic of supporting the rather poor LI and LC with the regular dense archers.

All in all I'd rather run something else if faced with foes like "lots of pike" or Ghaznavid.

Frank
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject:

Current fads in Warrior suggest that close order foot armies -- especially pike armies -- should enjoy popularity. Last year's NICT bears this out. So one challenge is how to play the meta-game: if you expect your opponents to have pikes and elephants, then what should you have?

Todd's Berber list offers some options, but skews a bit too much towards countering the elephants and not enough towards dealing with the pike. That's not Todd's fault; its a characteristic of the list.

The heart of the list is the Berber spearmen: close order with LTS,JLS,Sh. These guys are dubious against enemy pike, problematic against well-played SHK (and dismounted SHI), but very solid anti-elephant troops. Combine them with some decent loose order shooting and you have a very decent anti-elephant army. In fact, think of this as the anti-Ghaznavid army.

The Moogs and knights do give you some options against pikes, but not against a well played pike army. You have to have some way of deterring the 1 element column of pike with HI in the front that will harrass your own flanks and overlaps, and there simply isn't a troop type here that can do that.

I'm torn between a 6 and a 7 for this one, so I'll call it a 6.5 out of 10.
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject:

I simply love the discussion, particularly on lists I've seldom seen and certainly don't have the figures to play.

Todd, I don't suppose you could delve into some Terror Of The Steppes lists since that's the Hcon theme this year.

scott

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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Mark and Frank,

You are certainly right that Pike armies are going to give this army a tough run. We all know that it is typically the opponent and not the army one is facing that is the biggest concern as less experienced players are going to make many more mistakes than experienced ones.

That being said - the Berber list does offer a "chance" against pike armies with the moogs and I guess they could also dismount the knights, but that is not the best option. Not that many people run the HI pikes to tell the truth and that would take away frontage points for the Macedonian army and that would allow the Berbers to possibly hit other "weaker" areas that are lacking support.

That's why we play the game right? Very Happy

A 6.5 is fair enough for this army. It should do fairly well in a tournament, but will suffer against Pike type armies. I love the comments - keep them coming. I have a thick skin these days (years of coaching at the high school level) and can hear almost any comment and not be bent out of shape.


Actually, the Berber spear (while losing on even dice Rolling Eyes ) still have a shot against medium pike.

24 man berber spear vs. 32 man pike (4 deep)

12 spear @3, charging +1, javelin +1 = 5 [48]
4 additional spearmen @3, charging +1 = 4 [12] - total 60

24 pike @3, charging +1 = 4 [72]

yes the spear are disordered and will then rout next turn, but a +1 swingin favor of the spear makes it an even fight. That's still close enough at times.

Todd

I'll work on the Steppe list this week w/ comments.

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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject: taking a long look at Berber

Yo
Todd has shown me this list perviously, mainly because I tend to run Andulusians and the lists are somewhat similar. The one big difference is the Moogs. Todd feels and rightly so that maybe I would do better with my list if I would use them and try the Berber. Again he is usually righ in my case since we have faced off many times with my Andulus. So he knows my thinking(the poor man) and my weaknesses. Cool.
It has been very informative reading the comments. Everything that has been said about the bow units and the spear are right on. The LC Jls, sh have always been a problem for me. I never really know how to use them and they wind up being routing units. I have read Mark's treatise on using skirmishers and it has helped me but I still need more work on the LC.
The Moogs are a troop type that I have never used and don't have the figs for so it is an unknown for me.
But as Todd knows all too well. I have never picked armies that I felt would win for me but for some historical oddity or personality of the army and I have to say that the Anduls have it for me . THE CID. Wink
However, I will try the Berbers.
At my next encounter at Bill's I will borrow some MOOG like guys from Bill and see if I can use them effectively.

Ed the Moogwanabee
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:33 pm    Post subject:

A few thoughts on Moogs, mainly for Ed's benefit.

In the "old days", before the phalangite and Roman list rules, these guys were a great antidote to close order foot. You took two six figure units, and ran them impetuously into a 32 figure pike block, which had to take it at the halt, for an instant rout on even die rolls. Note: a single 12 figure Moog unit does not have the same effect, because 9@9=90 (not 3 CPF agains a 32 figure unit), whereas 5@9=48, and 2x48=96 (exactly 3 CPF).

Now in the "new world order" the phalangites can declare a charge and not be halted by impetuous foot, unless the phalangites are uneasy. The phalangites will still lose at contact, but not rout, and from there gradually start beating and then routing the Moogs.

So you need some combined arms tactics with the Moogs to make them more effective. There are basically two general tactics:
* Use mounted charging with the Moogs to force the pikes to take it at the halt, or
* Present a cause of unease to the pikes to force them to take it at the halt. Note that given the current ruling on Regular Bs, you may actually need two causes of unease.

A cause of unease could be "supers" in front of the pikes: SHK, SHC, or SHI. Several lists can get SHK (and hence SHI by dismounting) and Moogs on the same list. Some of the German lists (Hohenstafen) can get SHC and Moogs, although I don't remember whether these SHC count as supers for purposes of unease. Here the best option, if you can set it up, is to get dismounted SHK (preferably backed by EHK or HK in the second rank) dismounted next to your Moogs and in front of the pikes. The SHI really wreak havoc with the pikes in a sustained manner, whereas the Moogs very nicely deliver that first bound win to get the pikes disordered.

Combining mounted with the Moogs works well too. The mounted aren't there to win, they are there to (a) force the pikes to take the charge at the halt, and (b) involve the pikes in a combat the pikes lose overall against oppnonents which included mounted who did not break or break off. The latter forces the pikes to recoil disordered (not just become disordered) when they lose the combat. SHK or SHC work best for this, though EHK will do in a pinch. If you use EHK they must charge impetuously to get the math to work out. If you use SHC you actually want them to charge not impetuously. With SHK it depends on the situation whether you want to be impetuous or not.

None of these combined arms tactics will necessarily enable Moogs to rout pikes at contact the way they used to be able to do, but they all will break pikes down successfully over several bounds. Be aware, though, that because you are not routing the pikes at contact you will be obliged to defend the flanks of your units engaged frontally with the pikes, and that's a non-trivial task. Macedonian armies can use everything from Companions to Thracians to elephants to smaller pike / peltast / Hypaspist units to sit in the gaps between larger pike units and both guard the flanks of those larger pike blocks as well as harrass the flanks of anyone engaging the larger pike blocks. You must have your own gap-filling tactics to counter this.

Berbers do a great job at fending off the elephants and the Companions, but have a tougher time with the variety of Macedonian foot. It is difficult to apply enough pressure at enough points along the line while protecting your own flanks to really succeed against a skilled Macedonian player.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:08 am    Post subject: taking a look at Berber

thanks Mark. And it was very beneficial for me
I will try to figure something out to get that combined arms attack.
Now back to the drawing board.
Ed the Moog.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Berber list

All good comments, I have only run the berbers under the original list(pre ammendments) and then only in the NICT - I think I cam 3rd or 4th, largely because of combined arms, and the part that I struggled most with was highly mobile shooting armies - 100 years war, etc, who I could not catch and who were not afraid of my knights - or not very - moving at 120 paces that may not be an issue, however the Macedonian threat remains
I know however that given the choice I would rather face macedonians (they cannot really run, than a skirmish army with the Berbers, as your lights are poor, and your troops cannot really fight knights, 2HCT etc)
Just my thoughts
Robert
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