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Sarmations in a theme - Kaeser's 2nd

 
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject: Sarmations in a theme - Kaeser's 2nd

Greetings again Warrior fans. Here is the 2nd installment and there has been a request by our beloved ChUmp – Scott Holder – for me to take a look at a few of the armies that will be showcased for the Historicon theme – Terrors from the Steppes –

www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17097

I have decided to take a look at an old favorite of mine (Dave Markowitz originally ran them back in the day and I have been fascinated by them ever since) – Imperial Warrior, list 5, Later rhoxolani, Siracae, Iazyges Sarmation. When Dave ran them at a PointCon years ago I loved seeing the large units of heavy/medium horse.

With the theme being what it is and the list choices of having large numbers of cavalry I decided to see what sort of lists are out there that could counter the Mongols.

Sarmation

CinC 2E Ir B EHC L,B, + PA – 165
Sub 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,B + P – 99

[7x] 6E Lancers Ir B ˝ HC ˝ MC L,B – 151 [1057]

[3x] 4E Subject Skythians Ir C LC B ˝ Jls,Sh – 69 [207]

[2x] 6E Peasants or Herdsmen Ir D LI B – 37 [74]

Total – 1602
Scouting – 88
14 units

First, it is a very simple list. There are seven [7] big units [6 elements] of heavy/medium horse – that’s 126 figures out there. They could be run 3 elements wide [having the HC fronts] or they could be 3 elements deep for shooting. To combat the hordes of LC the heavy/medium horse could shove them away with their denser shooting and the lack of target for the LC. The heavy horse is also Irreg B and that is a big benefit as it may have to take the occasional waiver test and it is more likely to pass than being Irreg C.

The Skythian horse archers are able to fight a rank and a half (to combat the Mongol’s like ability). I wanted them to be “C” grade and not “D” because they are in a small quantity and will need the ability to charge without having to take a waiver test. They are armed well with ˝ shields and javelins for combat and that makes each unit more cost effective with no shields in the back ranks.
The light infantry will be needed to force-march out in front to grab some space, but also be needed to fall back through so the heavy horse can get to the front line. Not great, but at least something if there is any rough terrain out there. Not a long term solution overall, but with the theme there probably won’t be much terrain out there to begin with.

This list should outnumber, in terms of frontage, the Mongol armies and their units should be big enough to withstand the amount of shooting that is going to be on the table. In 25mm this should work better as there is less space to work with. In 15mm the additional space could prove to be too difficult for the army (without play-testing it first) to see if the Mongols have the ability to outflank or outmaneuver it.

There are going to be some potential problems: The heavy horse is shieldless and that is a minus vs. other shielded, lance armed cavalry. The back ranks are MC and if disordered they are a better factor to shoot/fight against. There is not a lot of LC, but the hope is to use the HC/MC units to shove away the opponent’s LC.

I would assume that this much HC/MC on the board could be pretty intimidating.

I await your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Todd

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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject:

I totally forgot to "rate" it.

As a theme army (for which the list is devised) I would say that it is in the 7-8 range. It could do very well, IMO, against a variety of the horse archer armies. I think on a totally open board, especially in 15mm it would struggle with the Mongol armies ability to regular and maneuverability.

As an open army I would think this would fall around a 3. It really has no response to pike armies, shooting armies, or Meso-American. There has been a list submitted anonymously to me that I will post in a few days if no other of you respond.

Todd K

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject:

I used to run Post Mongol Russian in a very similar style. Still have all the figures in 15mm. I like Post Mongol Russian better because it is slightly cheaper to buy the big blocks of loose order mounted -- meaning you get more of them, and because you can get some regular light cav and some shielded light infantry.

Ewan has used the Huns to prove how effective sheer numbers can be against the very expensive Mongol armies. This list has a similar advantage, placing more emphasis on the loose order cav than the light cav. That makes it a bit more hard hitting in both shooting and hand to hand than a vast swarm of light cav, but creates some additional vulnerabilities as well.

I think the big vulnerability would be against enemy foot archers. Being irregular, you don't have good ability to extract yourself from a trouble spot, even when in skirmish (you're still going to fail a counter 1/3 of the time, and in skirmish you have to present shiedless MC to the enemy which makes you very vulnerable, even with the -2 for being in skirmish). So an army like Timurid that has good regular foot shooters, or an army like Mongols that likely has the Chinese ally contingent and can also dismount its own cav for some very dangerous foot shooters, is going to present a real problem.

It would basically come down to whether you could swarm the flanks faster than your center would get shot to pieces. Frankly I don't know how that'd turn out. Guess we may find out in July.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:23 am    Post subject: Sarmatians

Humm
Very Interesting Cool
Matt has some unpainted Sarmatians that in 15mm. that he wants to get painted. Maybe this is the time to do that.
Plus Sarmatians have always been on my mind for years. Not as an army but as allies for my Danubean EIR. They are the only allies I can get and I always keep wondering if I should get them. Anyway back on target.
Matt is slowly building a Timurid army and we have some Mongols painted up. Anyway, get to the point Kollmer. And you know me I always have some crazy reason to build an army, well many years ago there was a movie "the Golden Horde" and really liked for some stupid reason, Well after reading Todd's book the " theDevils Horsemen " it brought back OLD thoughts of the Golden Horde.
Therefore, if Matt takes too long to get those Timurid together, I might just sneak in and take the mongols and make them the Golden Horde.
Also what further pushed me in the directions(if I needed any other reasons). I found out that you can have Russian allies. The list started looking better and GUESS WHAT I ALSO FOUND in the "Devils Horsemen"
(after twiking a little) Those Russians can have .... non other .... then MY FAVORITE RUSSIAN. ALEXANDER NEVSKY.
Now when matt askes about his Mongols for his Timurids. My answer will be "I thought I gave them back to you" Cool
Ed the Nevsky
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject:

Another thought for you all out there.

Here is an "anonymous" list sent to me that I thought I'd post for a different look at the Sarmation list:

CinC 4E Ir B EHC/MC L,B - 186
Sub 4E Ir B EHC/MC L,B - 136
Sub - same - 136

[5x] 6E Nobles Ir B EHC/MC L,B - 169 [845]

[3x] 4E Skythians Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 69 [207]

[2x] 10E Peasants Ir D LI B - 45 [90]

total - 1600
scouting - 80

I actually like the list a little more for the theme. Some different ideas than my list:

no PA or P standards - not the biggest deal in the world since most of the army is Irreg B (or at least what matters anyway)

The EHC in front is a neat concept. It absorbs the shooting much better than skirmishing HC/MC. The problem is that once they're in place it is almost impossible to get them out. It is definately in for a penny, in for a pound type army.

More LI and that is good too.

Todd K

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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject: Sarmatians

I prefer the second list, especially if the EHC can skirmish, was that a one time idea or likely to reappear as a core rule?
All the best
Robert
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:43 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I prefer the second list, especially if the EHC can skirmish, was that a one time idea or likely to reappear as a core rule?


I'm pretty sure that only certain lists (like Byzantine) will get skirmishing EHC Confused

Todd K

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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject:

I agree on the value of (preferably cheapish) EHC in the Theme. Just looked at the 3rd list Todd posted - with the 2 12E units of MI B - and comparing that to something like this, those MI would be utterly immovable.

I haven't looked at the lists at all; seems as though something designed to use terrain even in a mediocre way would have a good advantage.
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