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What is your favourite Elephant army and why?
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: What is your favourite Elephant army and why?

I have been preparing for Cold Wars and trying to decide what elephant army would best fit my lead and our team, and was wondering what peoples thoughts were aon the "best" gaming elephant army - not a history question, but a army utilization question.
I have used Alexandrian Imperial, Seluicid, Catrhaginian, and thought about some of teh late Indian armies, Kmer etc.
Would love to hear peoples thoughts about the various armies.
I will post my thoughts later - this may be better placed in list lore, or tactics?
Robert
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: The Macedonian Options

When Reviewing Macedonian/Successor armies and especially when focussing on the Elephant contaimning ones my first thought is always what are the troops I most want in teh list, and for Macedonians - must haves (In my opinion)
Elephants - preferably 6 (4 can do but then shooting becomes a much bigger issue)
Companions - need at least 3 units - great shock cavalry for the price
Pike - but they all have it
Good light infantry, light cavalry (regular light cavalry, light infantry)
Peltasts -I prefer these to Hypapists as tehy can skirmish - there are lots of infantry units I dont want to mess with, Hypapists dont have a choice(counters , and exact movement, especially when moving first- restrict your movement a lot)
Not a lot of stuff you don't want - like teh irregular light cav in a Alex Imperial army.
I will break down each list in detail, when next I get a chance - would love to hear from others on thsi site.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:46 am    Post subject: elephant list

Hi Robert
Somehow I feel that you really like the Macedonians and lists around it.
However when I think of Elephant armies I think of Burmese. Matt had one . The infantry were not great but the elephants were great and bow fire was great. I played them once against carthagians. The fellow kept running away from me with his elephants and kept pushing his infantry.
The other one is Timurid. Matt was trying to get the figs together. I am not sure how many elephants you get but they can have napha bombs I think.
But I must admit that your choices are very good mainly because you have elephants and really good infantry.
Ed kollmer
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:58 am    Post subject:

Alex is probably best, but I agree not really an elephant army.

Sassanid ditto; has El but not focussed around them.

I'd go for Khmer if I were trying to be all-El, all the time.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject: Ghaznavid

Don't leave out Ghaznavid...the Irr B pike armed elephants chew up pike and much else besides.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: I like the Ghaznavid

I really liek this army - very good elephants, good cavalry, mediocre infantry (IMHO)
I recently looked at a 1600 point list and it could be very tough - economy of force is an issue as you dont get any good regular light cav/infantry otherwise - I think it has a lot to reccomend it.
I have always seen it run with lots of the very expensive infantry, but as a cavalry/Elephant army it has a lot to reccomend it.
Very good elephants, some elephant proof cavalry - some good support troops.
Robert
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:06 pm    Post subject: 'navids

Ghaznavid should take every elephant, including 3 with generals...then the minimum of cavalry...take the Reg B LHI as 2E LTS,B,Sh units...then some lights.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:58 pm    Post subject: Ghaznavid

Frank - It sounds like a good combination , but I would think as you go up in points you would add the indian cavalry (for elephant proof cav - and lights - the reg B infantry is similarly effective to the elephants - the cav kills what the elephants do not - and pins lmi (skirmishers get run down)
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Macedonian elephants - what are the options

Generally accepted as the best armed elephants in the game - there are few Macedonian armies that get more than 4 elephants - the exceptions that spring to mind being Eudomos's indian elephants, Seluicid, Alexandrian imperial and I believe Lysermachid - with Seluicid allies.
Note that Cathaginian is an interesting (fun) option from this period, with good foot, OK elephants and good irregular and regular infantry - but no cavalry to get excited about (especially heavy cavalry)
Traditionally Seluicid was the macedonian superstar, and I would argue it is still in the top two.
The other list that has great strengths is Alexandrian Imperial - however to get more than 4 elephants you need indian allies, and it gets hard to build a good list that has few weaknesses with Indian allies.
For now I will only look at two lists, Selucid and Alex Imperial - and lay out what I perceive as the benefits of each list from a gaming point of view:
Alexandre is given a list rule which makes him valuable for morale - probably worth half a free army standard.
Both have companion cavalry - which given the special rules are very good for their cost - in my mind Seluicid is slightly better as they can be EHC (also SHC but lose special rules)
Pike - both can have lots of good pike - very slight advantage to Alex imperial as they do not have to take Reg B Pike - even though I like them
Peltasts/ Hypapists - most perceive the advantage being to Alex due to hypaspists- I do not as my Hypaspists are always a liability due to their inability to skirmish, and poor performance against elephants, Irregular foot and the fact that I regard them as frontline troops and they get shot up or run down by barbarian foot, reg bow blocks- but still edge to Alex - both are good however
Support lights - Alexandrian Imperial has reg C Li, jls, sh- wonderful for the price plus a wide range of other lights - Seluicid is more limited - Clear advantage to Alex Imp
Elephants - 4 for Alex 8 for Seluicid - even with allies edge to Seluicid as you want at least 6 - maybe 8 so they move as cavalry but have the heft to not be easily shot to a halt
If you go with the Indian allies in Alex Imperial you get bowmen and IrrC MC Jls, sh - trash troops and the first things I try to kill (the bow is not awful - just not as good as the alternate point uses)
Finally minimums required - Alex Imperial must take Bactrian cavalry - and it is almost always a waste of points - unless you run them as HC, and then at 1600 points you lose some flexibility.
Finally Light Cavalry - both have very good reg light cavalry, with my preference going to Alex Imperial as they are higher morale and so counter more easily.
When I think of assembling an army with either list, I try to give my opponent no easy points - and both are good at doing this , however in my opinion the Seluicid list has more punch than the Alex imperial due to the heavier cavalry - equivalent pike and more elephants - but they are both combined arms armies - that can take on any army in the game and if well played win.
Thoughts all?
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:29 am    Post subject:

Hi Robert
I like your analysis but I would like to give some ideas from what I see because Matt (my son) grew up playing with Seleucid and later converted it to Alex when Alex became a player.
1)Alex: Matt found him to be good but no game breaker. I got the impression that if you are a "ALEXophil" you will go with it
2) Pike either or But ( I don't have the list Matt has it) can Alex get a rank of bow with it's pike. I don't know how you feel about it
3) Hypapist. I think you convinced me that you don't go for them. So don't get them and a point against Alex
4) Lights depends on you how you like them and how many you like.
5)Elephants. I feel that Selecuid wins. THe only thing better than 6 elephants is 8 elephants. Even if you don't go with all 8 the fact that you have the option makes it better. Don't fall behind in the Elephant Gap.
6) LC: I personally feel that better morale LC don't make them better. They are not the shock troops. I have found that RegC do just as well or even RegD. Remember that I am Ed the Byzantinophil and I can get RegB LC. Look at my record. It hasn't led me to the nationals. Sad Smile Laughing Wink

IMHO

Ed the Byzantinophil
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:19 pm    Post subject: Macedonian Elephants

Ed
Good points on the light cavalry, however a lot depends on what you are doing with them. I do not regard my lights as competativeagainst good cavalry armies, where they are a liability as they get swarmed under, and so I typicallt take very few and their primary role is area denial - they are wonderful at slowing down an opponent at very little cost - but can only do this if they pass theri counters - hence Reg B is better for the way I use them. Also th lights make a big difference - but in my opinion the 6 elements of Bactrian LC you have to take with the Imperials is the difference in armies and really drives the decision for me.
Its 85 points that I have to hide - ve a unit that has a role in every game
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: favorite elephant army

Hi Robert
I like your response. You are right and my not getting to the nationals has extremely little to do with LC. Laughing Shocked
But I try vainly to use LC many times for the same reason, but I put the LC in skirmish and skirmish away to avoid the counter. But I don't know the rules that well. I might be doing it wrong Shocked
But I still feel that Selecuid is the way to go. Seeing Matt play both. I think he did better with Selecuid. But I don't know how he feels. And he played Selecuid at a younger age.
But you also made me think more of the Carthaginian. It was my first choice of an army way back when I got into this hobby but Ted F talked me out of it because at the time it was not a good army. So I took my second choice BYZANTINES that is how I became Ed the Byzantinophil. So someone could say that Ted F made me who I am today Laughing
I have a good part of it already. I went down to see how close I am to a 1600pt army. Most still has to be painted.
Ed the Byzantinophil
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Elephant armies

Ed - I have Cartaginians and it is a good army - just not great, but hopefully lots of fun as that is what we are playing at Cold wars in teams
Robert
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:18 am    Post subject:

Good Luck
I would love to see your list at some point. Not now maybe after CW.
You and Dick make a good team. It is Dick ???
May the FORCE be with you .
EdK
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Carthaginians

I would happily show it to you - Dick and I are playing and liek any army selected by committee it has strengths and weaknesses
Robert
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