Warrior Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
 
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Viking List Rules 1.5 Ranks Query

 
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject: Viking List Rules 1.5 Ranks Query

Can Hirdsmen or Berserkers fight 1.5 ranks when in a mixed body with Viking Warriors.
Rule 1 says 'Hirdsmen or Besirkir, either in separate/mixed units or as parent/detachments with each other,........etc.'
I cannot tell from this if a front rank of Hird/Berserkir (for example) in an otherwise Viking Warrior unit CAN count 1.5 because 'mixed units' is mentioned under the 'either' or CANNOT so count because 'with each other' is mentioned after under the 'or'.
In other words, does the 'with each other' proviso apply only to the parent/detachment alternative (as the printing of the comma after 'with each other' would grammatically indicate) or does it also apply to the 'separate/mixed units' alternative (in which case the 'mixed units' mean a mixture of exclusively Hird/Bersirkir), a different use of the term 'mixed units' from that in Rule 4 where it says 'Hirdsmen/Warriors/Beserkir may fight in mixed units of the same order.'
Many thanks in advance for any help on this!
sleepysloo.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:07 am    Post subject:

OK Jamie.
Jump in here.
I don't know enough about Viking lists.
Ed the Ignorant
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:40 pm    Post subject: Viking list rules

I'm not a viking expert, but I can see how these list rules are intended to work and explain them. Elite rank and a half vikings or varangians in the list rule will say Berserker or Hirdsman in their list line, average vikings who fight normally will say warrior or spear man. I'm going to make some bad text art here to show the various cases


1.
_____________________
Berserker or Hirdsmen |
_____________________|
_____________________
Berserker or Hirdsmen |
_____________________|

These two elements get the rank and a half rule

2.

_____________________
Berserker or Hirdsmen |
_____________________|
_____________________
Average viking warrior |
_____________________|

Second rank only fights half if armed with JLS

3.
_____________________
Average viking warrior |
_____________________|
_____________________
Berserker or Hirdsmen |
_____________________|

Front rank fights as armed, second rank fights with 2HCW per the list rule
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject:

WOW!!
Great explanation
Even I understand it now.
Don't worry. Your art is definitely
better than mine.
Ed the Enlightened
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:12 pm    Post subject:

Very helpful, thanks so much! I completely misunderstood the 1.5 ranks list rule to mean that a single rank of hird could fight as 1.5 times the number of figures in that single rank (e.g. 4 figs fight as 6). But you interpret it to mean all the first rank and half the second (so there is no benefit with a single rank of hird).
Just a quick point here...the 1.5 language used here is so radically different from the 'half the second rank' language to describe a similar situation with two ranks of JLS,.....are you sure this interpretation is correct? I just can't see why different language was used if the two situations are basically the same.

Thanks again, by the way; hope you don't mind this supplementary question: I'm teaching my 9 year old the rules ass I learn them, so want to make sure that I don't misteach him from the get-go (he still thinks I know everything about everything- I'm hoping to delay the inevitable day when he discovers otherwise!)
Sleepysloo Smile
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:55 pm    Post subject:

1.5 ranks is just short hand for rank and a half. You're right, the proper phrasing would be half (or all for some list rules) the second rank fights in appropriate circumstances.

Your question about cases of figures fighting as more than one fig is possible but rare.
1. Figs armed with 2SA fight double but usually take casualties as shield less MI or LMI. Viking berserkers and I think some older Japanese lists had this option. On the table top, 2SA is just a disaster waiting to happen. I once just let a 2SA get an impetuous charge off just so I could kill it. It did some outrageous number of casualties but blew up from all the fatigues it took in return.

2. Artillery crew, the first missile armed crew of an elephant or chariot, and Mayan peasants hurling hornet nests also get doubled when shooting. There might be list rules out there doubling the shooting of some other lists as well but those are rare.
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:50 am    Post subject:

Sorted!
Thanks again to all (just in time, in fact, to perpetuate the myth of my omniscience to my kids)
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject:

What!!!.......
That's a myth????????
Say it ain't so.!!!!!
Ed the Shockedd
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