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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject:

You are correct Mark - I missed:

6E Nomad Merc Light Cav Ir C LC 1/3 Jls,B,Sh 2/3 B - 85

Just added it to original post - feel free to edit yours as well Smile

Todd

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Koryo Korean - Frank Gilson

CinC w/PA 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,Sh/L- 185
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,Sh/L-115
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,Sh/L-115

6E Reg D LI B - 34
6E Reg D(1 C) LMI B - 62

2E Mongol Reg B LC JLS,B/B - 42
2E Mongol Reg B LC JLS,B/B - 42
2E Mongol Reg B LC B- 38
6E Mongol Reg C LC B – 82
6E Mongol Reg C LC B – 82
4E Mongol Reg B HC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B - 142

6E Reg D(1C) MI LTS,B,Pa/LTS,B,Sh - 110
6E Reg D(1C) MI LTS,B,Pa/LTS,B,Sh - 110
6E Reg D(1C) MI LTS,B,Pa/LTS,B,Sh - 110
6E Reg D(1C) MI LTS,B,Pa/LTS,B,Sh - 110
6E Reg D(1C) MI LTS,B,Pa/LTS,B,Sh - 110
6E Reg D(1C) MI LTS,B,Pa/LTS,B,Sh - 110

1599
17 units, 3 cmds, 67 scouting


I realized that Asian archer armies had become a distinct category within Warrior the year that Derek Downs and I both showed up at the Nationals with 10 Independent States. Later Tang is the other army in that category that gets regular tournament play.

Each of the three armies has something to commend it. With Tang you get the Tibetans; bow-armed SHC are a potent shock troop type. With 10 Independent States you get the combined arms potential of fire-lance armed LTS foot operating in tandem with Elephants.

Each army has its downside as well. It isn't easy to coordinate the SHC with the Tang foot, because they cannot charge together. With 10 Independent States your core shock troops are all C class, and you are perpetually outscouted. 10 Independent States is somewhat vulnerable to return fire as well.

The big down side on Koryo Korean compared to the other two armies is the lack of a true shock troop. Lance-armed EHC with no firelance doesn't beat any significant foot troop types straight up, and matches up very poorly against EHK, SHK, or SHC. So that is a problem to be overcome.

The upsides are significant here, however. The Mongol contingent means this army will never be outscouted, and will outscout some opponents. With 3 generals, these guys have a significant advantage in deployment, getting to set up most or all of the army after their opponent.

And unlike the Tang, the Mongol cav interact nicely with the foot archers. Specifically you get the Mongol LC who are very dangerous to other light troops given that they're regular and fight rank and a half (and can freely interpenetrate each other). Here you combine that threat with dense shooting that likely leaves your opponent's light troops rallying back, often disordered and/or tired. The Mongols LC can then run down these troops, inducing wavers and exposing flanks that the heavier lance-armed cavalry will exploit.

In addition the use of pavisse in the front rank makes the Korean foot pretty much impervious to enemy missile fire, making these guys very dangerous against another Asian archer army and much sturdier against armies like Meso Americans.

My personal preference is still for 10 Independent States, largely because I want a solid shock troop option if shooting fails to get the job done. However, that's a personal choice. Objectively Koryo Korean is no worse than 10 Independent States, and arguably it is the best army of this type.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Seluicid

I think Marks comments are spot on - I wanted the scythed chariots for a change - normally did OK - but not great - the saka LC is the weakness in the list as it does not do well against the good LC armies, nd makes this army one dimensional - the only game I remember losing was to Dereks Byzantine, and it was the lights that lost the game - we played 22 turns - end eventually he killed my screen and forced me to take sub-optimum battles to try to swing a 4:1 to a 3:3 or 4:3 my way - and of course it did not work.
I prefer more peltasts and only regular LC, as in this list it fits my style better
Anyone pointing the list will see I made an error - and it was corrected with Scott's knowledge before the tournament - but not reflected here.
As a point the combined cavalry varangian charge was not what was ever used - I lost my comeback effort when I charged his HC with EHC and found out it was HK - whoops,
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:09 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Moldavian - Scott McDonald

CinC 2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh PA – 172
Sub 2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh P – 112
2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh – 94
2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh - 94
2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh - 94
2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh – 94
12 Archers Ir C LI B – 49
6 Ir C LC B 2 w/ Sh, 5 w/ Jls – 91
8 Ir C LC B 3w/ Sh, 7 w/ Jls – 115
8 Ir C LC B 3w/ Sh, 7 w/ Jls – 115

Ally Gen 2E Knights Ir B SHK L,Sh P – 170
2 E Knights Ir B SHK L,Sh – 133
4E Ir B LC Jls,Sh 3 w/ L 1 w/ B – 89
4E Ir B LC Jls,Sh 3 w/ L 1 w/ B – 89
4E Ir B LC Jls,Sh 3 w/ L 1 w/ B – 89

1600 points


I think Dan Woyke was the first among us to start playing the Moldavian/Wallachian list with any regularity in tournament play, and it caught my eye right away, even if it was some years before I gave it a try in tournament play myself. In 2013 Chris Damour and I won the Cold Wars team tournament playing this list, and Dave Stier followed up with an Nationals victory playing this list.

So what's the big deal? Well, if you love to play an aggressive game with your light troops, this is the best list. All the native light cav fights rank and a half, and can have JLS and have Sh. There's plenty of light infantry armed with bow, and it can also be shielded. The only negative is that all these troops are irregulars. You can deal with that in two ways, however. First, under current deployment rules you can simply place your light troops in forward positions and, in the case of the light cav at least, start them in skirmish formation. Second, you can take a Mongol ally contingent, giving you some extra LC who fight rank and a half but are regulars.

With this potent combination you can put light troops in the face of your enemy's light troops that are likely more numerous, and thus can expect to have a shooting advantage, and also are top notch in hand to hand fighting. You can win the entire battle right there against a careless opponent.

If your lights alone do not carry the day, then you have a powerful lancer contingent ready to exploit whatever your light troops have exposed. I initially had some hesitation about the small number of available SHK, but I no longer think that's a big deal. Given that your HK can be partially Irr A, enemy knight armies are going to have to be careful even with the HK. And honestly, situations in which SHK are a necessity are rare, and 2 such units is probably sufficient.

So what's the down side? There are really two problems. One, there aren't a lot of great anti-elephant troops on this list. Assuming you take the Mongol allies, you can buy them such that you have a couple of 12 figure loose order cav units, which will enable you to dismount with two 16 figure units of HI/MI LTS,B,Sh. Those are pretty solid elephant killers, but only in one spot. You can also take your chances with dismounted knights. EHI JLS,Sh that are Irr A in the front are not an automatic walkover for the elephants. In that 42% of cases where the knights roll up, the elephants can be in trouble in a hurry. For those armies that take 4 elephants (Alexandrian Imperial, for example) the Wallachians/Moldavians will be fine. Against larger number of elephants like Ghaznavids it will be a race to see whether the elephant player can bring his elephants decisively to bear before the Ghaznavid light troops are stripped away.

The other problem is vulnerability to dense shooting, like an Asian foot archer army. The best approach here is to find a place to concentrate an attack with the SHK, supported by dismounted HK (since EHI is much sturdier in the face of shooting that HK), and elsewhere to screen of shooting with light troops. To make this work, the light troops will have to be platooned: operating in effect in two lines, which alternate between one getting shot up and the other rallying from getting shot up.

So overall, a great list for aggressive players if you buy it correctly. Scott makes several mistakes here in that regard. There should be a better balance of light infantry and light cavalry. LI are cheap space fillers that shoot as well as light cav and absorb shooting better, so they're a great way to stretch your points further. Any LI should also be bought half shielded instead of shieldless. Furthermore, you really have to buy the Mongol ally. Having a few regulars makes a huge difference, and you need the Mongols to set up your only really viable anti elephant play.

So I love the list, but would strongly urge buying it differently than how Scott has bought it here.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:24 am    Post subject:

WOW
Love the commentary.
I feel like I am taking a course in
Warrior gaming.
Keep it up.

However, I see the
Abyssinian. Does this mean they
are more prepared than I was
led to believe.
Hummmm.............
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject:

Mark,

If you look at the composition of the LC that the Polish support brings

4E Ir B LC Jls,Sh 3 w/ L 1 w/ B – 89 x3 units

(and I was surprised by this in my game) they dismount as 2E of MI
with front rank LTS,Jls,Sh and back rank LTS,Jls,B,Sh.....

This adds extra anti-elephant capabilities. No elephant wants to hit a foot unit armed with LTS AND Jls - nevermind a few bow shots as well....

and they can be remounted as LC and run from anything - doesn't matter too much if you're disordered as you can throw another light troop in the way to allow them to rally.

Todd

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:51 pm    Post subject:

Todd,

It's a wierd configuration, but I don't think it dismounts the way you describe. 2 elements of LC dismounts as 1 element of MI, so as I read it you need 2 elements of an LC weapon to get 1 element of that weapon dismounted. So these guys would, I believe, dismount as Irr C MI LTS,JLS,Sh (1 element) backed by Irr C MI JLS,Sh (1 element). By no means useless against elephants, but not optimal either.

Further, irregulars are harder to operate in this mounted - dismounted mode. They take more prompt points to prompt, they can only move 40p and dismount instead of moving full, they drop a morale grade when they dismount... lots of problems.

And the points spent on these guys are just very inefficient. At 25 point command factor, you should really be keeping LC in 12 or 16 figure units. The Irr B is nice, but probaly not worth the cost. They all have to have shields, which is a waste. And the armament is expensive and not all that useful.

This is a major difference between 1600 and 2000 points. On 2000 points you can be somewhat indulgent and spend points less efficiently in order to get a distinct capability. On 1600 every inefficient point really hurts; you'll feel it when you find yourself with fewer units or less frontage covered than more points-efficient lists.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject:

Mark,

I'm probably "mis-remembering" it - I had such a frustrating NICT this year and that game in particular was super frustrating.

I can say they dismounted in front of my elephants and I'm there facing LTS with Javelins and such....

They do provide some dismounted ability for close foot to take on the challenges of the list.

Todd

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:59 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Mark,

I'm probably "mis-remembering" it - I had such a frustrating NICT this year and that game in particular was super frustrating.


My sympathies, Todd. Sometimes it's the player that's frustrating, not the army. Not that I'm naming names or anything.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:26 am    Post subject:

And now we come to our National Champion and his list.

Quote:
Komnenan Byzantine - Derek Downs

CnC 2E Reg A/B EHK/HK L SH RA/B – 204
2E Ir B HK L,Sh – 91
2E Reg B HC/MC L,Sh
2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh – 94
2E Ir A/B HK L,Sh – 94
8E Ir D (1C) LC B – 75
2E Reg B HC L,B,Sh – 88
2E Reg B HC L,B,Sh – 88
2E Reg C LC B – 34
4E Ir C LC B ½ Jls – 61
4E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Sh – 62
4E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Sh – 62
4E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Sh – 62
4E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Sh – 62
4E Reg D LMI Jls,B,Sh – 74
2E Reg D LI S,Sh – 22
2E Reg D LI S,Sh – 22
2E Reg D LI S,Sh – 22
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh - 126
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh - 126

1603


Corrections to the above: remove one unit of LTS guys. The HC/MC unit is still an error, but probably a minor one.

I'll keep my comments on the specifics of this version of Komnenan to a minimum, and instead talk in generalities about the strengths and weaknesses of the list.

The key to this list is the Varangian Guard. And here I really have to applaud Scott and Bill for the work they've done on the list rules. These guys clearly represented a highly trained professional contingent who approach battle with a ferocity born of confidence rather than impetuousity. How best to represent that in our system? How do we replicate their performance against mounted opponents at a battle like Durazzo, for example? The Varangian list rules really do them justice.

There's a big combined arms opportunity on this list and on the Nikephoran list utilizing the Varangians. Because they can charge nonimpetuously with cavalry charging at the same target, you can use a combination of Varangians and cav to take down tough foot blocks like pikemen. Because there are mounted in the charge, the pikes must (a) take it at the halt, and (b) recoil disordered if they lose overall. With the pikes taking the charge at the halt, the Varangians win handily, and though the mounted probably lose, they don't lose by enough to keep the pikes from losing overall. Net result: the mounted recoil, the pikes recoil disordered, and the Varangians win but -- crucially -- do not follow up (they don't have to; they weren't mounted or impetuous). Next bound the Varangians charge anew, this time facing disordered pike that they will beat. If there are mounted available to throw in great, but not necessary.

Add to this that the Varangians are a true menace to elephants, and you can see the appeal of this army. You get decent knights; not SHK but some Irr A, so good enough. And you get awesome pike and elelphant killers. Add to that very decent light troops and plenty of dense 4 to a stand shooters, and you have the makings of a top tier army.

To all of this you now add the fact that Kontaratoi always fight in two ranks and can use Crusader formation. So unless the pikes are deployed in depth, the Kontaratoi don't really fear them. And the Kontaratoi can also provide a rally point for native Byzantine cav when they adopt Crusader order, allowing the cav to interpenetrate them (and remember the Byzantine cavalry can always opt to rally back as a charge response).

So you get a cheap line of Kontaratoi who are plenty sturdy, and an abundance of light troops and dense shooters to tangle with enemy lights and threaten enemy flanks. Then as opportunity presents you have the menace of Varangians and/or knights charging at vulnerable targets.

In closing I'll note that my personal preference is to play Nikephoran. I like the way SHC combine with the Varangians better than the way EHK combine with the Varangians. At 8 figures SHC are harder to do disordering casualties to, and as SHC they are less vulnerable to shooting. These differences will matter against opponents like Meso Americans and Asian foot archer armies.

Either list -- Nikephoran or Komenan -- is plenty strong, however. These are now among our top tier of lists, thanks largely to the Varangians.


Last edited by Mark Stone on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject:

The above was subsequently revised--me and Frank went over it. That being said, there still was a mistake with the HC/MC unit.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:
The above was subsequently revised--me and Frank went over it. That being said, there still was a mistake with the HC/MC unit.


To be fair, that is a wickedly intricate list. One might almost say it is byzantine in its complexity. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Inca - Dan Woyke

CinC 4E Reg A LMI 2HCT,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh – 242
Sub 4E Reg A LMI 2HCT,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh – 167

6E Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh – 154
4E Reg C/D LMI HTW,Jls,S,Sh – 102
4E Reg C/D LMI HTW,Jls,S,Sh – 102

4 Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh – 106
4 Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh – 106
4 Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh – 106

4E Reg C LMI HTW,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh – 90
4E Reg C LMI HTW,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh – 90
4E Reg C LMI HTW,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh – 90

4E Reg D (1C) LI Jls,D,Sh/D,Sh – 40
4E Reg D (1C) LI Jls,D,Sh/D,Sh - 40
4E Reg D (1C) LI Jls,D,Sh/D,Sh - 40

6E Reg D (1C) LMI 2HCW,B,Sh/B – 84
2x 6 elements of walls – 40


Dan is one of two players who regularly play Meso American armies (Bill Low is the other). These armies really are a distinct type within Warrior, to the point of almost making it a different game.

All rely on a front line of LMI. All rely on dense shooting. All use shooters that primarily shoot shielded (dart and sling). So they put out a ferocious amount of shooting, are relatively impervious to return fire, can immediately charge any vulnerabilities that shooting exposes, and can skirmish away from any threats that are otherwise presented. I still vividly remember the first time I played a knight army against Aztecs (30 years ago) and got completely annihilated in about 45 minutes.

Of the Meso Americans, Inca is arguably one of the most potent. Sling is a better missile weapon that dart, having both a longer range and better factors against armored opponents. And the presence of 2HCT and HTW makes these guys very strong in hand to hand against other foot troops.

There are some negatives. Inca does not get circulating combatants, which really aids the durability of Meso American troops, particularly against mounted opponents. All Meso American armies struggle to occupy sufficient frontage, and thus typically have to find at least one terrain feature to anchor against. That's not so difficult given the typical maps we see now with pre set terrain, but it does put the army in a counter-punching posture. That defensive posture is also a product of being almost perpetually outscouted.

The complete lack of cavalry is also a problem. The Incans cannot chase down opponents that skirmish away from them. They also cannot protect their own light infantry from enemy mounted, meaning those light infantry will be ridden down the moment they are on the front line in the open or in brush.

So the usual tactic against Meso Americans is to concentrate your best foot and mounted against one end of the Meso American line, preferably the end that is in the open against a table edge rather than the end up against a terrain feature. Screen off the rest with light and skirmishing troops. Then try and break that end unit with a careful combined arms attack, with reserves ready to protect the flanks of your attackers and/or exploit exposed flanks of the Meso Americans.

Dan gets a bit more frontage covered here than other Meso American armies, but at the cost of morale. Many Meso American armies present nothing but A and B class troops, meaning you literally have to route them in detail rather than rely on the cascade of failed waver tests. Dan can intersperse his Cs and Ds between higher morale troops which will help some, but he is more vulnerable to taking wavers than most Meso American armies.

To my mind the biggest risk running a Meso American army is not the risk of defeat against a skilled opponent. No, the biggest risk is ending up with a bloodless draw against a timid opponent. It's very easy to end up with a 0-0, 1-0, or 1-1 result against someone who just doesn't want to engage. That's doubly hurtful in our scoring system: not only are you getting a low score in the game, but you're getting it against someone who's likely to have low scores overall.

So I appreciate the unique character these armies have, and I know I'm in for a tough match whenever I face one. But I ccouldn't ever see myself running such an army.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:19 pm    Post subject:

I made a mistake when posting the list Mark - I mistakenly added an additional unit of MI LTS for 62 points.

I also went back and added the point total for the HC/MC unit.

Should be fixed. Feel free to edit your comments due to my mistake.

Todd

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Komnenan list errata

I was curious about Derek's list error at first and was looking to see where he and his checkers went astray. I think we have to blame the list errata for this problem and not anyone who was trying to make sense of the errata.

The problem seems to be line 3 of the errata in the late period. A previous line upgraded all HC Kavallaroi to HK L Sh leaving only MC Kavallaroi (ID or IC) to arrive at line 3. You should be able to upgrade the IC MC Kavallaroi to RC for 6 points per this line, but it also says they should be EHC or HC. The armor reference is inconsistent. Without that reference, the late period would flow pretty simply. Any HC Kavallaroi become HK L Sh while MC Kavallaroi may be ID, IC, RC, or RB and later get an option for B.
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