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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Medieval Irish - Jake Kovel

CinC 1E Ir B LC Jls,Sh + PA – 122
6E Kerns Ir C LI S,Sh/Jls – 55
6E Ir C LI B – 49
8E Bonnachts Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh/Jls,Sh - 109
8E Bonnachts Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh/Jls,Sh - 109
8E Bonnachts Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh/Jls,Sh - 109

Sub Gen 8E Ir B HI/MI 2HCW,Jls,D/Jls,D – 225
8E Ir B HI/MI 2HCW,Jls,D/Jls,D – 201
8E Ir B HI/MI 2HCW,Jls,D/Jls,D – 201

Ally Gen 4E Ir B HK/HC L,Sh P – 178
4E Ir B HK/HC L,Sh – 145
6E Ir C LC Jls – 97


29 scouting points here, which is impressive on this list.

I have to admit a fondness for this list, even though I will never ever play it. The Galloglaich are a unique troop type, and in the hours of list browsing I do away from the gaming table I find that I keep looking at this list trying to find a way to make it work.

So let's talk about the positives here. The Bonnachts hit enemy foot really hard at first contact if you can get them going impetuously. So do the Galloglaich for that matter. And the Galloglaich don't necessarily have to charge. They can move up to charge range and start hurling darts at things, often with good effect. And the support shooting from darts does a lot to mitigate the Galloglaich vulnerability to mounted. For example, I'm hard pressed to think of a troop type that elephants would fear more than Galloglaich. And unlike pure barbarian trash armies (Vikings, for example) there's just a bit of decent mounted here. You have one light cav unit that can chase off careless light infantry, and two knight units that can help keep things from just skirmishing away from the Galloglaich, as well as provide some punch in follow up after the Galloglaich go in.

Usually one of the big problems with Medieval Irish is the lack of frontage covered because it relies on units that are fairly big and fairly expensive. Jake has done a pretty solid job here of mitigating that. The three big Galloglaich blocks will cover almost half the table, and the Bonnachts can occupy most of the rest, particularly if there's any terrain to take advantage of, which there almost always is. Nor are the Bonnachts completely vulnerable to mounted charges in the open since they can adopt Shieldwall.

Given all that, there's at least one matchup type that should work well for the Irish: Ghaznavids. Nothing of consequence in the Ghaznavid army can beat anything of consequence in the Medieval Irish army, and the Ghaznavids have even more trouble covering frontage than this version of the Irish.

There's also a bit of a missed opportunity in Jake's way of buying the list. The Bonnachts are eligible for the barbarian foot rules, and importantly that means that units larger than 8 stands can get extra figures fighting in a 3rd or 4th rank. So where Jake has 3 units of 8 stands, it would be better to do 2 units of 9 stands, operating 3x3, and one unit of 6 stands. This somewhat narrows the frontage covered, but significantly improves the punch of the Bonnachts.

Now the negatives.

This army suffers from some of the same problems as a Meso American army - an inability to chase things down that fade away in front of it. The HK help mitigate that, but only in one spot in the line. Overall this is still a bit of a problem.

Further -- and this is a subtle point that many people overlook -- number of units matters. Or, to invoke the old Soviet quote, "Quantity has a quality all its own." Derek has perfected the "qauntity" approach; Frank Gilson and Dave Markowitz are competent practitioners as well. Here's what I mean:

We all too often say to ourselves, "Hey, these guys are sturdy line troops, because even though they can be killed it would take 5x their cost in points ganging up on them to do that." So let's look at the fallacy. Derek's armies typically have 20+ units. Jake's army here has 11. So how many of Derek's units does it take to pin or screen off 10 of Jake's 11 units? Not very many; let's say 6 - 8 units. How many units does Derek have left to kill the unit he's chosen to focus on? Plenty. Will Derek also have units left over in reserve to cover the flanks of his own killers and exploit the flanks exposed by the unit he just killed? Absolutely.

Raise your hand if you've been on the receiving end of this kind of treatment from one of Derek's armies. Thought so.

So for all it's other weaknesses -- covering frontage, lack of mounted troops, brittleness of relying on Irr C troops as attackers -- the fatal flaw in this list is the small number of units. Yes, the list has intriguing virtues. But not enough to make up for that flaw.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Komnenan list errata

jamiepwhite wrote:
I was curious about Derek's list error at first and was looking to see where he and his checkers went astray. I think we have to blame the list errata for this problem and not anyone who was trying to make sense of the errata.

The problem seems to be line 3 of the errata in the late period. A previous line upgraded all HC Kavallaroi to HK L Sh leaving only MC Kavallaroi (ID or IC) to arrive at line 3. You should be able to upgrade the IC MC Kavallaroi to RC for 6 points per this line, but it also says they should be EHC or HC. The armor reference is inconsistent. Without that reference, the late period would flow pretty simply. Any HC Kavallaroi become HK L Sh while MC Kavallaroi may be ID, IC, RC, or RB and later get an option for B.


Jamie,

I agree that's exactly where the problem lies. That errata line both implies the troops being upgraded have to be EHC or HC and also places no such explicit limit. I always take the more conservative reading of these things, but the more liberal reading is open to interpretation.

My assumption was that some amount of scummy loose order cavalry (must be MC, must be irregular, can only be C or D class) was inevitably part of every Byzantine army from this period. I think the historical record is very consistent with that assumption.

However, we shouldn't speculate. I'm sure Scott or Bill will provide clarification when they can.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject: Komnenan

Yup, the Komnenan list needs a little bit of fixing...Derek got it almost completely correct...one of our most complicated lists.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject: Inca

Woyke almost always (or always) took and ran 2 Stone Walls, setting up high morale troops in gaps and low morale behind the walls or in terrain.

That's a recipe for a draw...to me...but he made it work out fairly well.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:55 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Early Byzantine - Jamie White

CinC 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh PA – 201
2E Reg B LC Jls,Sh – 46
2E Reg B LC Jls,Sh – 46
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26

4E Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
2E Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 66

4E Reg C LMI Jls,D,Sh – 90
4E Reg C LMI B ½ Sh – 66
4E Reg C LMI B ½ Sh – 66

Sub 4E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh P – 215
2E Reg B HC L,B,Sh – 88
2E Reg B HC L,B,Sh – 88
2E Reg B HC L,B,Sh – 88


24 scouting points here; never thought I'd see a Byzantine army with less than 25 scouting points. Kudos to Jamie for bringing such an unusual list to the Nationals, and buying it in an original way.

The best way to think about this list is as a Meso American army backed by lance-armed cavalry. Here's what I mean: very few light troops (only 4 units), so the non-light foot will all be on the front line. And that foot is composed of missile-armed troops most of whom have a respectable hand to hand weapon (note that by list rule the LTS guys fight two full ranks at all times). Frontage covered is limited, so favorable terrain allowing one to cut down the size really helps.

Obviously there are some differences with a Meso American army. There's a lot of close order foot here which has no chance of chasing down even enemy LI, and can also never fade from a threat by going into skirmish. But the playing style is going to be very similar, and the short tactical move by the close order foot is mitigated by the plentiful lancers, who can be used to keep enemy foot troops from easily skirmishing away.

The difficulty is nonetheless similar to Meso Americans. This has to be a counter-punching army with a fairly short punch; neither dart nor close order foot charge can reach out and touch someone beyond 80 paces. This is in contrast to the more aggressive posture that Asian foot archer armies can establish by shooting out to 240p with concentrated bow fire. So there are the usual risks:
* A timid player without the shock troops to deal with the LTS foot can simply hang back, leading to a low scoring draw.
* Depending on terrain, the interior flank (the one not against the table edge) may be vulnerable. If that flank is anchored on nothing more than open terrain or brush, then it's easy enough to screen off the close order foot and swarm the flank.
* A number of the Nationals armies actually have the means to take on the LTS. The Incans have HTW-armed troops. The Ghaznavids could concentrate Daylami bow fire and artillery on one unit, provoking a waver test. The Alexandrian armies can confidently challenge with pikemen. Komnenan can use combined arms with mounted and Varangians.

Bottom line: a solid list that requires the opponent to think carefully about how to match up with it, but not one that can compete with the top tier of armies and one that will struggle to find a way to reach a decisive win against any solid player.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Tepanec - Bill Low

CinC 4E Reg A LMI 1HCW,D,Sh (1E S instead of D) PA – 151
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110

4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110

4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh – 106
4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh – 106
4E Subject War. Reg C LMI 1HCW,Jls,Sh – 90
4E Otomi Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls/Jls,Sh – 67

2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64

2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh – 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh – 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh – 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26

Scouting 6 points 1600


Bill Low has been playing this army for years, and playing it well. I won't repeat all the comments I've made previously in this thread about the challenges of limited frontage and lack of mounted troops. They all apply here. Instead I'll do a bit of contrast with Dan's Incas.

The main line here is LMI LTS,S,Sh with the Irr A Otomi sitting in the gaps between the main line units, and stepped back. All the main line troops are Reg B with an element of A. In other words, the entire line and all the Otomi are always eager and only fail a waver on a die roll of 1.

This is absolutely classic Meso American. Yes, the front line troops are beatable, but nothing is going to rout them at contact. So as the opponent you have to solve several problems simultaneously:
* You have to present a threat capable of taking on LTS,S,Sh, knowing that just mounted won't do it;
* You have to present a threat capable of taking on LTS,S,Sh knowing that just foot wont' catch them;
* You have to have a plan for how to deal with the Otomi in the follow-up bound knowing that they are waiting to pounce on your flanks;
* You have to assume all the Tepanecs are going to pass their waver tests.

These are tough problems to solve. Pike and elephant armies can't really use the elephants as the mounted troop type since the elephants are too vulnerable to missile fire. Knight armies can use a combination of mounted and dismounted knights, but must be very careful since even SHK are vulnerable to sling. Other armies with less imposing mounted have an even tougher time.

Two armies that do match up very well against the Meso Americans are the Komnenans and the Koryo Korean.

In the case of the former, the Komnenan LTS guys all fight in two ranks all the time, making them solid troops against the main Tepanec line. The Varangians are also highly capable in this role. In the case of the latter, the sheer quantity of Korean foot helps, especially since they'are all bow-armed. They can be used to soak off shooting from the Korean mounted, so that the mounted can approach close enough to keep the Tepanecs from skirmishing away.

Note also that the Varangians provide a nice answer to the Otomi. Here's how it plays out:
* The Varangians approach to 40p from a Tepanec LTS,S,Sh unit, in column and in skirmish (easy enough to do; they're regulars).
* A unit of knights approaches to less than 80p but more than 40p (easy enough to do; they move after all the Tepanecs).
* If the Tepanecs skirmish, then the Varangians charge and try to catch them. If they don't, then repeat again next bound.
* If the Tepanecs counter away outside of charge reach, then repeat again in next bound's approaches.
* If the Tepanecs stand, then both the knights and the Varangians charge. The likely outcome is that the knights lose, but by less than the Varangians win, meaning the Tepanecs lose overall. So: Tepanecs recoil disordered, the knights recoil, and the Varangians opt not to follow up.

In this latter case, there's nothing engaged for the Otomi to charge, and the Komnenan player can easily have another mounted unit come up next bound to charge the now exposed Otomi while the Varangians charge the now disordered LTS,S,Sh unit.

Obviously this all takes some care to set up, and some patience to step through the necessary approach moves while making sure you have everything lined up. But the point is it's doable, and there's not a lot the Tepanec player can do other than fade back until he runs out of table.

In some ways, the Meso American strategy is simple: assume your opponent will feel compelled to be aggressive, and assume he will get careless / hasty somewhere and make a mistake. In that all too frequent scenario the Meso Americans can be ruthless. The solution is carefully planned aggression against the Meso Americans, combined with the patience and skill to stick to the plan precisely.

Simple, right?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject:

And now for a bit of African Warrior:

Quote:
Abyssinian – 1595 points - Todd Kaeser

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) – 174
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103

4E Light Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,D,Sh (EP) - 89

2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105
2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105

9E spearmen LMI 1/3 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 2/3 Ir C Jls,Sh - 133
9E spearmen LMI 1/3 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 2/3 Ir C Jls,Sh - 133

12E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 145
12E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 145

4E Portuguese Musketeers Reg C LHI/LMI 1HCW,CB 1/2Sh - 98
6E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh – 61

4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh - 49
EP = Elephant proof
27 scouting (81/9)


Certainly an interesting list, and one that resonates with other lists that Todd has frequently played. If I look at this list, Berbers, and Knights of Saint John all three have: some shock cavalry, though not the best or most points efficient; some foot with shock potential if used carefully; an abundance of shooting that can wear down opponents to make them more vulnerable to either the foot or the mounted.

In short, finesse armeis that present multiple threats but require careful coordination and execution to get everything working right.

The strong arm of this force is the Irr A foot. While brittle, and vulnerable to die rolls, these guys have the potential to bowl over any foot in their path, and any mounted short of SHK or SHC. Furthermore, Todd has wisely put them in 9 stand units so that they can take advantage of the barbarian foot rules for a little extra punch when charging.

The difficulty here is in coordination between units. The EHC are elephant proof, but they can't charge with the elephants, and if you bring the EHC in close enough to provide cover for the elephants it's difficult to prevent them from charing off impetuously at something.

The Irr A foot also can't charge with the elephants, because the foot must be impetuous. So again, coordination between units is a challenge. The Irr A foot and mounted can charge together, and having the mounted in the mix helps induce a recoil disordered result (against, say, pikemen).

So probably the elephants are best used as follow up troops, with the Irr A foot leading the charge supplemented when appropriate by the Irr A EHC. Against a knight army the elephants have to be more aggressive to help keep the knights back.

And while this is a lot of shooting, it's somewhat brittle. The two big bow units are MI, not LMI, and so cannot skirmish. That makes them more difficult to maneuver, and vulnerable to a careful attack (by pike or dismounted knights for example).

Finally a word about Irr A tactics. If I were to play this army, I'd probably be setting up under "Hold" orders with an eye towards optionally changing to "Attack" at the right moment. The key is that under "Hold" my Irr As are not required to charge. There are complications of course. You have to play defensively and assume your opponent will come to you since you can't cross the center line. And you're going to do a lot of prompting as a consequence, meaning the spare command points to switch to Attack orders may not be available when you need them. But it is a way to solve some of the lack of control over Irr A troops. The corollary, of course, is that if you think your opponent might take this approach you should put your own commands under "Wait" orders and make him come to you.

Overall I like this list better than Berbers, and it is comparable to, though different from Knights of Saint John. The same challenges in playing a finesse army exist, but there's a contrast in dice outcomes. Knights of Saint John are highly regular, and thus there's a lot of predictability and little variance in combat die rolls. Abysisnians are the opposite: still finesse, but wide variance in combat die rolls. Somebody will walk away from this encounter with a 5 point victory, and often times it can be the Abyssinians.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:03 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The difficulty here is in coordination between units. The EHC are elephant proof, but they can't charge with the elephants, and if you bring the EHC in close enough to provide cover for the elephants it's difficult to prevent them from charing off impetuously at something.


I thought that all mounted can charge together right? Regardless of impetuous EHC the elephants are mounted and can charge the same target.

There is certainly a steep learning curve for me and I performed poorly (at least in my own mind).

The new deployment rules can mitigate the need for wait orders as armies often set up within an approach and charge move from each other. I am typically in combat on turn one or at worst turn two with this army.

I think the Portuguese represent another facet - modern firearms with a 160p range (80p close). They can also fight well vs. most troops being LHI and armed with 1HCW,Sh - fighting a rank and a half.

I did also paint the army for the history - there is a rich history in the army and their artwork is also quite unique - very Renaissance as they were influenced by a European artist (who I can't remember at the moment) and their art is incorporated into the banners.

I'm certainly still learning the army and am close to completing painting and basing it at the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:12 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Alexandrian Imperial - Dave Dietrich

CinC 2E Reg A HC L – 150
Sub 2E Reg A HC L – 100
Sub 2E Reg A HC L – 100

6E Cretan Archers Reg C LI B ½ Sh – 52
6E Arachosians Ir C LC Jls,B – 85
6E Skythians Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B – 91
2E Companions Reg A HC L – 70
2E Bactrians Ir B HC L,B – 73
2E Bactrians Ir B HC L,B – 73
6E Persians Ir C LI S,Sh/B – 55
4E Phalangites Reg C HI/MI P,Sh – 90
4E Phalangites Reg C HI/MI P,Sh – 90
2E Elephants Ir C 1 w/P, 1w/Jls – 105
2E Elephants Ir C 1 w/P, 1w/Jls – 105

6E Agrinians Ir C LI Jls,Sh – 61
4E Greek Peltasts Reg C LMI LTS,Jls,Sh – 90
4E Greek Peltasts Reg C LMI LTS,Jls,Sh – 90

2E Hypaspists Reg A/B LHI/LMI LTS,Sh – 62
2E Hypaspists Reg A/B LHI/LMI LTS,Sh - 62


Dave Dietrich is probably one of the most underrated players in our group. This may have to do with the fact that for many years he played only 15mm, and so did not show up in tournament standings among 25mm players. But I've played Dave several times over the years, and I know I'm always going to be challenged to the utmost.

Here Dave is playing one of the top tier lists, and clocking in at 57 scouting points you can definitely see the influence of years of 15mm play. That's not necessarily a bad thing. If you contrast the Alexandrian Imperial list with the Seleucid list, one of the reasons to favor Alexandrian Imperial would be because of the superior light troops. The Seleucids certainly have greater shock power: more elephants, EHC, and scythed chariots. What Dave presents here is a completely different approach.

Some things to note:
* Spending points on a modest amount of LI is well worth it; you get equal shooting power to LC with greater resistance to shooting at a fraction of the cost, so you can buy more light troops overall.
* These are quality LI; all have shields in the front, meaning that enemy LC cannot just ride them over with impunity.
* The LC is very capable hand to hand against other light troops since it is armed with JLS, and since the Skythians fight rank and a half.
* The Bactrian HC can also stiffen the light troops, either backing the LI to keep them from being targets for enemy LC, or by intermixing with the LC to charge off enemy LC and provide some extra shooting.
* There's a real emphasis here on foot troops that can move fast -- two units of peltasts and two units of Hypaspists that move and charge 120p, while the pikemen are kept to a minimum.

The game plan, then, is to play a very agressive game with the light troops, looking to drive back or rout enemy light troops quickly. This will either expose flanks of enemy units, or at a minimum create a hinge in the enemy line which can then become a place to concentrate the attack. Some combination of pikes, elephants, and/or Hypaspists should be enough to crack an enemy line unit, and then between the Hypaspists, peltasts, and Companions the Alexandrian player has the speed and force to exploit whatever advantage is opened up as a result.

Is this the best list in the 2014 Nationals? Maybe not. The Seleucids and the Komnenan "swarm" are both very capable lists. But if I had to pick one list out of all of these to play myself, this is the one I would pick: light and fast, but with plenty of punch against a variety of matchups.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject:

And finally we have:

Quote:
Later Polish - 1596 Phil Gardocki

CinC 2E Ir B SHK,L,Sh + PA - 230
Sub 2E Ir B SHK,L,Sh + P – 160
2E Knights Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh - 124
2E Knights Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh - 124
4E Knights Ir B/C SHK /HC L,Sh – 181

9E Lituanians Ir B LC Jls,B,Sh - 169
8E Lituanians Ir B LC Jls,B,Sh - 153
6E Wallachian Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh – 109
4E Bowmen Ir C LMI 2HCW,B,Sh/B 61

Lithuanian Sub 2E Ir B HC,JLS,L,B,Sh - 110
2E Mounted Crossbow Reg C HC CB - 58
2E Mounted Crossbow Ir C MC CB - 49
2E Tartars Reg C LC B – 34
2E Tartars Reg C LC B – 34

Total........................................... 1596
Scouting Points..... 89
Outscouted by...... 267
Outscouts........... 29.5


Later Polish is another one of those tantalizing lists that I keep coming back to, trying to find a way to make it work. In the end, I've never found a variant I'm happy with.

On the one hand, there is so much goodness here:
* SHK that can bought in a very points efficient manner by having EHK in the back rank. This not only saves points, but provides a deadly dismount unit in the form of SHI 2HCW backed by EHI JLS,Sh.
* Impressive light cavalry. Some Irr B, some regular Mongols who fight rank and a half, and some irreg Wallachians who fight rank and a half and beat all other light troops if they get going impetuously.
* Multi-armed foot troops. 2HCW plus bow is certainly not a troop type Elephants want to tangle with, if only the Polish player can come up with the right way to configure them.

But there are problems too:
* The multi-armed foot are Irr C, which makes them hard to counter with and vulnerable to waver tests.
* Some of your knights have to be C class.
* You are required to take troops who are among the game's least useful: mounted with CB.

In the end I find I can always get greater points efficiency and a very similar list by playing either Wallachian or Early Polish, and so Later Polish is just never a list I would choose.

Phil also makes some choices here that I would think through a bit more:
* Put EHK behind all the SHK, including generals. It shaves a few points that can be used elsewhere.
* Don't put knights in 12 figure units! Find the 25 points to split them into two units. These are your shock troops, and you want to use them in as many places as possible.
* Take some LI, and less LC. As I've stressed over and over in this discussion LI are cheap space fillers that compliment LC well and help you stretch your points farther.
* Don't spend so much on Lithuanians. Yes, the LC is Irr B but they don't fight rank and a half are thus are vulnerable to many of the preferred light cav types out there in the Nationals. They won't fare well against either the Huns or the Moldavians, and even Alexandiran Imperial has a unit of Skythians they have to worry about. And Irr B with shields and double-armed throughout, is soooo expensive.
* Minimize the mounted with CB. Take one small unit of 4 figures of LC, and no more. Yes, that unit is almost useless. But spending more points to get more and/or regular and/or up-armored mounted CB isn't helping. The resulting troops are only marginally more useful, and way more expensive.

The choices made here detract form the efficiency of an already inefficient list and it shows. This list has 14 elements of lancers, but also has only 14 units total. That's a very thin screen with little frontage covered in front of the knights, and since the screen is almost entirely LC it is very easy for an opponent (Inca, Tepanec, Koryo Korean, Hun, Komenan Byzantine, etc.) to drive back that LC with shooting, and then start softening up the shock troops with more shooting. As it stands, despite all the scouting points this list runs the risk of being enveloped, leaving the knights without the room and cover they need to operate effectively.
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derekcus
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:49 am    Post subject: Tuetonics

So sad that the FHE logo is of the Tuetonic Knights charging and the list is so in need of help. Just a few changes would go a long way to reviving this once proud list. Thoughts?
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Teutonics

Agreed Derek - believe Todd Kaeser is working with Bill on it - would love you to weigh in
Robert
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:39 am    Post subject:

Love this.
Keep up the good work.
I really like the Hun (Kroupa) analysis.
I have a Golden Horde army. I think I might
try this and finally CRUSH my foes.
Ed the Hun
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: Huns

How can I resist Todd's invitation? (And, many thanks to him for both hassling Scott and getting this rolling - to be honest Todd deserves a bunch of credit in general for his efforts in pumping life into this forum. Buy the guy a beer.)

Mark starts out with completely sensible commentary on Rich's Hun.

Mark Stone wrote:


Quote:

Hun – list 33 – Imperial Warrior

CinC 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 150
Sub 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 100
Sub 2E Ir B LC Jls,B,Sh/B – 68

4E Archers Ir D LI,B – 33
6E Franks 2E Ir C 4E Ir D MI HTW,Sh – 81
6E Franks 2E Ir C 4E Ir D MI HTW,Sh – 81
2E Camels Ir C MCm Jls,B,Sh - 61


All this stuff above other than generals is basically irrelevant. a 4E unit of IrrD LI is paying 25 command points for 8 points of troops Smile. I'm sure that they're compulsory. The camels have to be kept well away from almost all of your own troops! So this is a lot of points to be spending on stuff that you hope to never use; that's one red flag.

Quote:

6E Skirmishers Ir D (1C) LC B – 63
6E Skirmishers Ir D (1C) LC B – 63
6E Skirmishers Ir D (1C) LC B – 63

6E Skirmishers LC 1/3 Ir C Jls,B,Sh, 1/3 Ir C Jls,B, 1/3 Ir D B - 85
6E Skirmishers LC 1/3 Ir C Jls,B,Sh, 1/3 Ir C Jls,B, 1/3 Ir D B - 85

9E Skirmishers LC Ir C 1/3 Jls,B,Sh, 1/3 Jls,B, 1/3 B - 121
9E Skirmishers LC Ir C 1/3 Jls,B,Sh, 1/3 Jls,B, 1/3 B - 121


My biggest issue with the list is all these 6E units. Again, you are paying a LOT of points for command. Would it have been so bad to go for more 9E? The idea is to win by swarming, not by having lots of small units, and a 6E unit is small enough to potentially get into trouble. Make them all 9E, give them javelins in the front, let them be optimised to kill enemy screens FAST as Mark notes.

Quote:

2E Noble Cav Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 85
2E Noble Cav Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Noble Cav Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Noble Cav Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Noble Cav Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85

Total Points 1600


(Snip) of lots os sensible Mark stuff.

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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Neo-Assyrians

Quote:

Neo-Assyrian – Late period - Larry Daum

CinC 2E HCh Reg B Jls,B + 2 Jls – 157
Chariot Runner Reg B LMI Jls,D,Sh – 53
2E Qurubuti Sha Pithalli Reg A EHC/HC L,B – 83
Sub 2E HCh Reg B Jls,B + 2 Jls – 107
Chariot Runner Reg B LMI Jls,D,Sh – 53
2E Qurubuti Sha Pithalli Reg A EHC/HC L,B – 83

2E Chariots Reg B HCh 1w/ Jls,B 2 w/ Jls – 92
Chariot Runner Reg B LMI Jls,D,Sh – 53
2E Kisir Sharruti Reg B EHC/HC L,B – 82
2E Kisir Sharruti Reg B EHC/HC L,B – 82
12E SabSarri Scouts Reg C LC B – 82
6E Kisir Sharruti LHI/LMI (or HI/MI) LTS,Sh - 154
The list recorded both close and loose so……?
4E Sab Sarri Reg C LMI Jls,D,Sh – 90
4E Sab Sarri Reg C LMI B – 53
2E Sab Sarri Reg C LMI Jls,D,Sh – 74
12E Sha Kutalli Reg D MI Jls,D,Sh – 202
8E Dikut Mati Ir D MI B – 57
9E Aramean Archers Ir C LI B – 43


Only 15 units, none of which has much in the way of armour or fancy weaponry (well, this *is* Biblical). That's not enough for a finesse army, which this is. I honestly don't get this list. Yes, the loose order troops are nice, but they can't win you a game. And your frontage is tiny - those 15 units are small to boot.

And... what the heck is a 12E unit of ***REGULAR*** LC doing in any list, anywhere?!

There, Todd: snarky enough for you? Smile
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