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Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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Ewan McNay
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Albany, NY, US
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 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Stone wrote: |
Ewan asked for an example of how to buy the Wallachian/Moldavian list, so here it is. This is the version that Dave Stier won the Nationals with in 2013:
CinC+ 5 HK, L, sh IrrA/B 172
SubG+ 5 HK, L, Sh IrrA 115
6 HK, L, Sh IrrA/B 94
6 HK, L, Sh IrrA/B 94
Hungarian AllyG+5 SHK, L, Sh IrrB 170
Hungarian 6 SHK, L, Sh IrrB 133
Vitej 12 LC, B, 1/2 JLS IrrC 79
Vitej 8 LC, B, 1/2 JLS IrrC 61
Vitej 8 LC, B, 1/2 JLS IrrC 61
Hungarian 8 LC, B, 1/2 JLS IrrC 61
12 LI, B, 1/2 Sh IrrC 55
12 LI, B, 1/2 Sh IrrC 55
12 LI, B, 1/2 Sh IrrC 55
Tartar AllyG+ 5 HC, L, B, Sh+ 6 MC, L, B RegB (3)/C (9) 205
Tartar 12 HC/MC, L, B, 1/2 Sh RegC 130
Tartar 8 LC, B RegC 58
1598 points
83 scouting points |
Thanks, Mark.
That's a great list - kudos, Dave  . I'm not sure that I would take even the minimal foot that Dave did, but I probably would; I might well make at least one 12E unit, though. [I have been using a 12E unit of shielded LI B for a long time in my Sassanids, and it is definitely one of the best value units in the army.] That's a really minor criticism.
What does this army worry about? Solid foot lines - a pike/el army without too many lights is going to be difficult to kill, although I expect that the approach involves dismounted mongols against El and hoping not to lose too fast with knights against pike while that's happening; a line of LTS will need dismounted knights and this is a case where the pavise would be an awesome item to have for foot archers against the massed LC. MesoAmericans would be tough because they can outshoot the LC while remaining shielded, and sling is a good anti-knight weapon. Nonetheless, a big improvement over Scott's version for sure. |
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Mark Stone
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ewan McNay wrote: |
What does this army worry about? Solid foot lines - a pike/el army without too many lights is going to be difficult to kill, although I expect that the approach involves dismounted mongols against El and hoping not to lose too fast with knights against pike while that's happening; a line of LTS will need dismounted knights and this is a case where the pavise would be an awesome item to have for foot archers against the massed LC. MesoAmericans would be tough because they can outshoot the LC while remaining shielded, and sling is a good anti-knight weapon. Nonetheless, a big improvement over Scott's version for sure. |
Against a pike-elephant army yes, the dismounted Mongols face off against the elephants and mounted / dismounted knights in combo face off against pike supporting the elephants. At the point it comes down to player skill in dictating the right matchups, but I have to give the upper hand to the Wallachians because the superiority in lights gives them greater ability to dictate matchups, and the pike-elephant player has no shooting of consequence with which to try and take the lights out of the game.
Meso Americans are harder, but I've never seen Dave lose to a Meso American player. He platoons his lights so they don't get shot up as quickly, and he picks a place to concentrate with lancers and dismounted knights boot to boot. If the Meso American player over extends or leaves too much of a hinge in his line then that shock attack will come early, opening up other weaknesses to exploit. If the Meso American player is disciplined, then the shock attack will come late when there is little time left for counter punching. Lacking any mounted troops whatsoever, the Meso American player has little recourse.
A harder problem would be an army like Koryo Korean. The volume of shooting is so high, and the shooting coverage is table edge to table edge. This makes platooning the lights much more problematic. The only way to bust an LTS,B unit is with dismounted knights, and that takes time to set up, as well as some care given that the Koreans have lance-armed cavalry of their own. A very tough matchup for the Wallachians. I built 10 Independent States for this very purpose, as an army with enough shooting and enough punch to have reasonable options against pikes and elephants, and to be devestating against knight armies. The year I did best with it, finishing 2nd in the Nationals, I beat Italian Condotta (Sean Scott), Medieval Spanish (Chris Damour), and Later Welsh (John Cleaves) without difficulty.
To be clear though, I've never beaten Dave in competition, and this is probably the best list he's ever played. This is really a fearsome army in the hands of someone with his skill and playing style. |
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Ewan McNay
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Albany, NY, US
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Stone wrote: |
And now for a bit of African Warrior:
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Abyssinian – 1595 points - Todd Kaeser
CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) – 174
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
4E Light Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,D,Sh (EP) - 89
2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105
2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105
9E spearmen LMI 1/3 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 2/3 Ir C Jls,Sh - 133
9E spearmen LMI 1/3 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 2/3 Ir C Jls,Sh - 133
12E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 145
12E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 145
4E Portuguese Musketeers Reg C LHI/LMI 1HCW,CB 1/2Sh - 98
6E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh – 61
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh - 49
EP = Elephant proof
27 scouting (81/9) |
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Mark is much nicer about this list than I will be . My first impression is of a lot of expensive troops that are targets rather than to be feared: EHC can't skirmish so the cav is vulnerable to frankly almost anything, the elephants are the world's worst elephants but cost almost as much as good El, the bowmen can't run and are irregular to boot so can't even manouvre, the foot are not awful but (especially because shieldless in 2nd bound) will lose to most things unless they rout you in an initial charge. 4E units of Irr LI are just gimmes for the enemy. Honestly, yuck. Sorry, Todd 
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| Overall I like this list better than Berbers, and it is comparable to, though different from Knights of Saint John. The same challenges in playing a finesse army exist, but there's a contrast in dice outcomes. Knights of Saint John are highly regular, and thus there's a lot of predictability and little variance in combat die rolls. Abysisnians are the opposite: still finesse, but wide variance in combat die rolls. Somebody will walk away from this encounter with a 5 point victory, and often times it can be the Abyssinians. |
Wow. OK, Mark, you play these guys and see how many 5-point wins you get in an NICT. I think they're nowhere in the same league as KoSJ (which I like a bunch) or Berber (which I am attracted to but unconvinced it's a top-level army). Todd's an excellent player, and I think this year's relatively poor showing is 100% down to this army choice.. |
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Mark Stone
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ewan McNay wrote: |
Wow. OK, Mark, you play these guys and see how many 5-point wins you get in an NICT. I think they're nowhere in the same league as KoSJ (which I like a bunch) or Berber (which I am attracted to but unconvinced it's a top-level army). Todd's an excellent player, and I think this year's relatively poor showing is 100% down to this army choice.. |
It may just be possible that I am mellowing with age. And no, I would never consider playing this army in a tournament. I'll re-state my position, perhaps a bit more honestly this time (still not as harsh a Ewan, for which we love him):
There's enough punch in this army against a variety of threats, and enough uncertainty when facing Irreg As, that this army is very capable of punishing carelessness. So be wary when facing a player of Todd's caliber who is playing this army. That being said, it is a finesse army, but also an army of irregulars. Those two things seldom go together well, since irregulars do not give you the precision of maneuver needed to carry off finesse. A careful and competent opponent should have little difficulty in blocking the threats this army presents while exposing weaknesses that, by their very nature, irregulars cannot easily mask. |
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Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Love this debate.
Learning a lot about this army with this exchange.
Need to know this since i will be facing this army.
Ed the Inquisitive |
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Matt Kollmer
Recruit
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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please make the Teutonic Knights a good list again!!!
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did those bombards really explode again?? |
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Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Wow. OK, Mark, you play these guys and see how many 5-point wins you get in an NICT. I think they're nowhere in the same league as KoSJ (which I like a bunch) or Berber (which I am attracted to but unconvinced it's a top-level army). Todd's an excellent player, and I think this year's relatively poor showing is 100% down to this army choice.. |
A few explanations for the army choice:
I knew going in it was a very challenging army to play. The criticisms are accurate. It is a cumbersome army and difficult to sync up the various elements. Having run it only sparingly before and in 15mm also made it difficult to use.
I ran it for a few reasons. I wanted to get an African army on the table for Bill's sake as he pours his heart and soul into the hobby and especially African Warrior. I wanted to lead the charge.
I had played it before so I knew some of the challenges - however, I really thought it had some character and flair. If I was so into winning I would run an "A" list army. I have run very few of that nature over the years with maybe the closest being Aztec/Tepanec which by your judging is not an "A" list army but a good one.
As I researched the army (much to the help from Sir William Low) I realized this was a "Christian" army and they had some truly outstanding artwork that I could make into...... BANNERS - something I kind of like doing a little. Bill helped me with some of the figure choices and donated some truly gorgeous figures to help me. I spent about 4 months researching the army and its history and have tried to make it as historical as I could get it. I had to augment a few figures to add to the army, but have Dremel will travel. I'm sure the banners are not historical to the army, but they are historical as to the rock church paintings... and I LOVE painting banners. The camp (last to work on) will also reflect the rock church of Ethiopia. Hopefully it all comes together.
The elephants are not great - I don't think they're the worst... cough Carthaginian... as they are "C" grade but the cav is elephant proof and can work in tandem with the big stompies. I like the Irreg A flair - although I rolled so poorly (except vs. Jake) that the army melted away at key spots for me in the NICT. I know it doesn't match up well vs. any real army quite frankly, but that is the challenge of running the army.
I'll have it finished (as a 2 year labor of love) for this year's NICT. I've worked out some of the kinks and will comment on the army again next year trying to write up an AAR with its use.
Todd
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scott holder
Moderator
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6063
Location: Bonnots Mill, MO
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If I was so into winning I would run an "A" list army. |
Thank you for saying this. One of the reasons I've stopped posting the army lists from the NICT is precisely because of the implication in the commentary that any person not running an "A" list army must have something wrong with them. 
scott |
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Ewan McNay
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Albany, NY, US
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| scott holder wrote: |
| todd kaeser wrote: |
| If I was so into winning I would run an "A" list army. |
Thank you for saying this. One of the reasons I've stopped posting the army lists from the NICT is precisely because of the implication in the commentary that any person not running an "A" list army must have something wrong with them.
scott |
Huh. Have I given that impression? If so, then (i) my apologies and (ii) that's completely incorrect. The critiques here *are*, granted, purely from the perspective of 'how does this list look in terms of being competitive?' There have been many examples - Jake's Irish; The Greek's Greeks ; a couple of Persianophiles - where someone's running a list for the love of the list rather than because they think it's a top list: I think that's laudable and fun but it would hurt me to handicap myself that way in the NICT  .
I can see how criticism might be taken as of the player rather than as of the army - and again, I'm genuinely sorry if that's the case; completely unintended in terms of 'having something wrong with them.' Something wrong with an army list choice according to a metric of 'will this give me the best chance to win,' sure - but I agree that there may be other metrics for one's personal victory conditions! |
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Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Huh. Have I given that impression? If so, then (i) my apologies and (ii) that's completely incorrect. The critiques here *are*, granted, purely from the perspective of 'how does this list look in terms of being competitive?' There have been many examples - Jake's Irish; The Greek's Greeks Smile ; a couple of Persianophiles - where someone's running a list for the love of the list rather than because they think it's a top list: I think that's laudable and fun but it would hurt me to handicap myself that way in the NICT Razz.
I can see how criticism might be taken as of the player rather than as of the army - and again, I'm genuinely sorry if that's the case; completely unintended in terms of 'having something wrong with them.' Something wrong with an army list choice according to a metric of 'will this give me the best chance to win,' sure - but I agree that there may be other metrics for one's personal victory conditions! |
Ewan - I take no offense in any way - I enjoy seeing yours and others comments about an army and its strengths and weaknesses. That's part of learning IMO.
Winning is certainly more fun and having an "A" army certainly helps in the winning. I've won it already - I don't have to prove to myself that I can. Also, I had that "moment" in my life when I had a clear look in the mirror and said I don't want to be an uber-competitive gamer anymore - with great apologies to John Garlic again.... I'm okay with facing an opponent who is striving to have the title. I wouldn't mind it again either, but don't need the stress that life already has thrust upon me. I didn't enjoy that part of me quite frankly.
I enjoy it when someone runs a "love" army vs an "A" army. We've seen a few and their weaknesses are pointed out - part of the learning an army completely. I really wanted to hear the Abyssinian comments - how else am I to learn the army's strengths and weaknesses besides playing (which I don't have time to do sadly). I never thought of it as a finesse army when I built it - not with all the irreg A troops, elephants, and huge blocks of MI bow. I have learned a lot about the army and how it can work through mistakes in running it. I hope I've corrected many of the problems - we'll see in July. Otherwise I get a good view of my own banners at least 
I hope to have the Tepanecs completed by Historicon 2016 and see if I can return to form a little, but for now I'm content to muddle through learning this challenging army and enjoying painting again.
Todd
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Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Scott,
While putting the lists puts up the obvious critical eye towards choices, both in lists run and options within, it also gave us 5 pages of Forum interest.
I think it is a good thing to have continued interest in Warrior. I will continue to keep the thoughts and discussions going.
Also can't wait to finish my Abyssinian army - hoping the camp comes out like I want it to.
Todd
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"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down" |
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Frank Gilson
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1567
Location: Orange County California
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: Koryo Korean |
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I chose to play Koryo Korean due to the Pavise and Mongol mounted combination. Mongols skirmishing and getting some freebie enemy light kills while the weight of shooting from the close foot would wear down many opponents.
The army really has little trouble with MesoAmerican opponents because recall that close order foot charging/counter-charging with LTS fights two full ranks, Mesos do not. Also, if the front rank of Pavise troops lose, they just fall back through the back shielded rank. If Mesos employ other non LTS troops (with better anti-foot weapons) they may receive an impetuous mounted charge, then follow up charge from the foot. The Meso slings cause effectively no damage to the pavise holding close foot.
The difficulty comes from carefully employed armored enemy pike and dismounted knights...problems I have not properly solved  . |
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Mark Stone
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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In an ahistorical sense, there are better and worse lists. Those are not the only reasons or even the main reasons to play an army. I have at least 3 armies in 25mm that don't fit that description: Later Paleologan Byzantine and Knights of Saint John are primarily of historical interest to me, and Shang Chinese partly for historical interest but also just because it is one of the most exotic armies in our period.
But I also don't put all the effort into NICT analysis to pass judgment on armies. I see that analysis as a tool for elucidating some of the nuances of Warrior play and Warrior army list construction. I like those discussions, I learn from those discussions, and I hope others learn something from the thoughts that I share. I could use another vehicle to have that kind of discussion, but the NICT provides a good, standard vehicle for driving a discussion of some of Warrior's finer points, and that's really my motivation.
One can debate how realistic a game Warrior is. One can debate the merits to history of playing tournament miniatures that allows for ahistorical matchups. I honestly don't think any of those debates are very interesting. To me Warrior is a remarkable game system for putting forth a rich, complex interaction of maneuver and combat that requires elegant thinking about combined arms and multi-turn combat strategies. I can't think of another tactical scale game that does this so well. That's why I've stuck with the game for decades, and its the discussion about those aspects of the game that I so thoroughly enjoy. Whatever serves to provoke those discussions is a worthy topic on this forum. |
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Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Well stated Mark!
I agree as well.
Probably why I'm on here as much as I am. Love of the system and all that History.
Todd
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"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down" |
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