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By Toutatis, or a bad day at Romney
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RaphaelC
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:32 pm    Post subject: By Toutatis, or a bad day at Romney

Hello All,

I just thought that I would share a report of our latest game (the one that generated so many questions).

It was an EIR v Ancient British game of 1600 pts, simply using the basic rulebook, with no list rules or suggested Xrules etc.

The Roman army had two commands;

1x 2E Reg A HC JLS, Sh PA C-in-C
1x 2E Reg B HC JLS, Sh
1x 4E IrrC LC JLS, Sh
3x 4E Reg B HI HTW, Sh
1x 4E Reg B Lt Bolt Shooter

1x 2E Reg A HC JLS, Sh P SG
2x 2E Reg B HC JLS, Sh (one on a Flank March)
1x 4E Irr C LC JLS, Sh
4x 4E Reg C LHI JLS, Sh
1x 6E Reg C LI B (Forced March)

The Ancient British had;

1x 1E Irr B LCh 1 with JLS C-in-C
7x 8E IrrC LMI JLS, Sh
3 x 4E Irr C LI S, Sh
2x 4E Irr C LI S
1x 2E Irr E LMI IPW with Sacred Standard

1x 1E Irr B LCh 1 with JLS SG (Entire Command Forced March)
3x 6E Irr B LCh 1 with JLS
3x 6E Irr C LC JLS, Sh

The terrain, which fell perfectly for the Romans had a marsh in each of the flank sectors, and a wood in the central front sector, all on roughly the centre line of the table, with a small ridge in the right rear of the central sector.

Weather had no effect on the game.

The Romans deployed with the Sub General's command in a line right and centre consisting of left to right, three LMI units, then 2HC units, then another LMI unit, then the forced march LI just behind the right hand marsh, on Attack Orders.

The C-in-C's command deployed in a line behind them, right to left, with the Lt Bolt Shooters on the ridge with the C-in-C, then the three HI units, then the HC unit and finally the LC unit, on Hold orders after advancing to the centre line.

The British deployed the Sub General's command in their left flank and centre, all forced march to almost the centre line, with the 3LC units up against the marsh, 2LCh units to their right, with the remaining LCh unit and the Sub behind in reserve.

The C-in-C's command deployed to the right rear in two lines. The first had 5LMI units, each with a LI screen. Behind these, backing up the left hand two front line units were a further 2LMI units, the C-in-C and the Sacred Standard. I believe the entire army was on Attack orders.

This left a large gap between the two commands which the Romans hoped to exploit.

The Roman plan was to break through on their right while the three central LHI units, each backed by a HI unit converged left, right and into the wood to engage the warband. The victorious right wing would then sweep round behind the engaged enemy and complete a glorious triumph.

It went almost to plan, aided by a fairly passive enemy and incredible Roman dice throwing (I think I threw down -1 once in H-t-H combat and that was with a RegB unit. The LHI Auxilia also performed well, unopposed as they were by any enemy chariots or impetuous charges.

The game started with both armies advancing to contact, then from right to left it went as follows;

The Roman LI moved into the marsh on the right against which the enemy light cavalry were effectively pinned. Good LI shooting, a refused LC recall, failed waver and ensuing charge against the shaken unit routed them. The remaining two LC units became more cautious and failed to make any impression on the LI for the rest of the game. I understand that the British plan involved an infiltration by the LC through the marsh to attack the Roman right.

Meanwhile the Roman cavalry advanced to flank one of the LCh units. The other LCh unit charged the Numidian LC who evaded, it failed to make contact and recalled. The Roman HC in front of the chariots was driven back by excellent javelin throwing. They were meant to charge along with the flanking HC unit, thus catching the chariots stationary, but due to being in skirmish formation had to recall instead. Fortunately, the Sub General charged impetuously into the flank of the chariots, which coupled with support shooting from the bolt shooters disordered and recoiled the chariots. It took another two turns, and the commitment of both the remaining HC, now rallied, and the Impetuous Numidian LC to finally break the stubborn enemy chariots. This caused a failed waver on both the chariot units behind them. The Enemy sub General had not yet rallied his routing LC, so the command was now demoralized.

In the centre the Auxilia moved as planned, while the LC delayed the outer flank units of enemy slingers and warband. A unit of HI moved up in support either side of the wood, while one was diverted across to screen their flank from the still present enemy reserve chariots (the first time I could have used Fulcum).

The enemy infantry was by now compressed and slowed by the wood and left hand marsh. Charges by all the Auxilia, eventually supported by the C-in-C's Command cavalry (after a change to Attack orders) drove back the first line of warband, cramping them even further. Finally, despite a brief rally, the enemy centre broke. The resulting five failed waver tests demoralizing that command also.

Despite being only the second game my opponent has played, so beginners errors aside, it went very well. He has now ordered the Imperial Warrior Lists and wants a rematch using the relevant list rules.

Best Regards,

Raphael
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:53 pm    Post subject:

I'll certainly chime in on the advice part if you'd like.

I'll throw together a Ancient British list that should take advantage of some of the Barbarian rules more so. I also think that Gaul is a better list as Irreg A is a much more dangerous foe than Irreg C.

12 Element units are much more desired. Less LCh - they are not that effective. Maybe in 3E units.

Romans - see if your Aux can get sling - even if two units have them they wreck havoc and make the units so much more dangerous.

More later - just quick thoughts.

Todd K

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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:31 pm    Post subject:

Ok - here is a quick take on the Ancient British List in 1600 points for your friend. Disclaimer - there are many ways to skin a cat, and here is one way:

CinC 1E LCh - 100

Sub 4E Ir B LHI/LMI Jls,Sh - 104

6x 12E Warriors Ir C (1 element A) LMI Jls,Sh - 139 [834]

2x 4E Warriors Ir C (1 element A) LMI Jls,Sh - 67 [134]

6E Adol Warriors Ir C LI Jls,Sh - 61

2x 4E Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,Sh - 73 [146]

6E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh - 61
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh - 49

2x 2E Chariots Ir B LCh Ir B 1/ Jls - 57 [114]

Ideas: 12E units are pretty tough. With barbarian rules they would hit the Romans at (say 2 elements hitting)

6@ 2 +1 Jls, +1 charging, +2 Impet = 6 [30]
2nd rank - 3@6 (see above) = 15
3rd and 4th rank get an additional 2@ 2, +1 charging, +2 Impet (no jls bonus) = 8

53 for cpf vs. Romans 12@ 5 = 48

The "A" element keeps you eager and able to charge impet even when unsuported.

The Sub unit is tougher being LHI fronted and is a follow up unit to the bigs... as are the other 4E units.

The LCh are there to keep the Romans (or anyone else) uneasy. They are poor combat troops to be honest.

The rest are lights. The LC provide scouting and some flank march ability if the board is covered in terrain and your 6 12E units do take up some decent space.

The LI Jls,Sh are to occupy a woods/rough hill and either delay vs superior troops or push vs. weaker LI.

LI S,Sh are some fair skirmishers - their slings are decent missile weapons and they are also very tough to shoot away being in skirmish and shielded - usually -1 to shoot at.

You shouldn't need too many prompts as you're "A" in so many places. Have your buddy mark from himself who the A element is so there are no arguments.

The "A" elements also take away the need for the Sacred standard - allowing for more troops.

Fun stuff,

Todd

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RaphaelC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:36 am    Post subject:

Hello Todd,

Thanks so much for that, it really is great to get a well considered outside opinion showing that the Ancient British aren't a walkover for the Romans.

If he adopts this very sound advice then he can use the naked fanatics I have painted to mark his irregular A elements. They certainly stand out in a crowd.

The next purchase is scheduled to be some figures for LHI.

As to taking away the Sacred Standard to give him more troops, just how many troops does one person need Shocked

Any advice on how to configure the Romans to tackle this, quite frankly, menacing opponent would now be even more appreciated!

Many Thanks and Best Regards,

Raphael
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject:

In the Middle and Late Period, Early Imperial Romans can get some lance-armed cavalry. They are well worth the points compared to the weak JLS-armed cavalry.

One of the big problems with the Roman armies, and Early Imperial Roman in particular, is that bodies that are HI/LHI and shielded throughout are really expensive, thus limiting the number of troops you have and the frontage you can cover. If cheaper LMI or LI are available that can stretch your line further, then such troops are probably a good trade off.
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RaphaelC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject:

Thanks Mark,

Some very useful advice.

To be frank, the game was very one-sided, but I know that with a bit more knowledge of the rules my opponent will make it much, much harder.

The Romans conquered half the known world, I struggled to conquer half a known table!

The current issues I have are:

What to do with the compulsory artillery.

Do I downgrade the Legions back to Reg C.

Should I reduce the LC in favour of more LI. (This is highly likely following your analysis of the latest NICT Lists).

Should I focus on protecting the Auxilia more by taking the HC as attachments. (The game was decided by a HC unit charging into an ongoing combat in support of a LHI unit).

Removing the 2 Reg A HC from the Generals.

Increasing the size of the Auxilia units to 6E.

Adding another unit of Legionnaires.

Physical table coverage. (This isn't so much of an issue in itself if I can delay the enemy or cover the flanks because the sheer bulk of the Ancient British doesn't allow them to concentrate without getting in each others way.)

Regards,

Raphael
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject:

RaphaelC wrote:
Hello Todd,

As to taking away the Sacred Standard to give him more troops, just how many troops does one person need Shocked

Any advice on how to configure the Romans to tackle this, quite frankly, menacing opponent would now be even more appreciated!


First - a barbarian army can never have too many Rolling Eyes - waves of troops are needed.

Here is one take on the EIR - I agree with Mark on his points. Mark is a great source to bounce ideas off of. Just remember that you have to find what works for you. That being said I love making lists and here is one idea.

EIR - Middle Period (D)

CinC 2E Reg A/B HC Jls,Sh + PA - 187

2x 2E Numeri Cav Reg B LC Jls,Sh - 46 [92]
4E Eq. Coh Sag Reg C LC B 1/2 Sh - 66

3x 4E Legions Reg C HI HTW,Sh - 106 [318]

3x 4E Auxilia Reg C LHI Jls,Sh 1/2 S - 114 [342]

2E Bolt shooters Reg B 2 crew - 54

6E Numeri Infantry Ir C LI Jls,Sh - 61
4E Numeri Infantry Ir C LI Jls,Sh - 49

2x 4E Spanish Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh - 49 [98]

Sarmation Ally 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,B - 119
4E Sarmation Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,B - 133
2E Sarmation Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,B, - 79

1596

43 Scouting

A few comments on my choices:

The Roman HC with Jls,Sh is pretty poor cavalry... only 1 rank fighting and can't be impetuous typically. The less the better.

There is an option to upgrade Numeri Cavalry to Reg B - totally worth it. They can't outnumber Equites (which have the 4E unit so we're okay).

The Auxilia are better when they have sling in addition. Yes, it is only 1/2 but they can skirmish easier and can dish out at least some shooting at 120 paces.

Frontage is a real problem with EIR - therefore a fair amount of lights are needed and this army can have some fair lights.

The Sarmation Ally is a great way to have some lancers and they're pretty good. Being Irreg B they can be eager easier (unlike the Armenians who are C class) They are in a 3 unit command so need 2 incapacitated to go under retreat orders. While they don't have shields they are fronted by EHC. Option to remove EHC and make them HC which is easier to skirmish. Personal taste IMO.

Just some ideas to chew on.

Todd K

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Ancient British

I would use 4 element chariot blocks, and if possible Irr A in the blocks. For the romans - auxilia hold/ deny flanks - lancer cavalry - small LC blocks and mount the artillery on carts if possible (they get to shoot overhead)
I am not as down on the HCjls, sh with generals- as long as you use them for flanks etc only
Robert
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: Romans

For the romans - 1 or two units of auxilia and maybe in 8's as they are not great and more legions - may also cut the 4 elements of rga cab b/1/2 shiled and use 2 units of jls reg B - but others may differ
Robert
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RaphaelC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:10 pm    Post subject:

Hello All,

Thanks once again for some really helpful advice and suggestions.

Todd,

Another great effort on the army list.

As all the LI Numeri can all be upgraded to Reg in the November 2011 Errata I will probably adopt that option and upgrade one of the bolt shooters to a stone thrower with the points saved.

You are quite a fan of the sling aren't you.

Lilroblis/Robert,

I also like HC with JLS, having used them from when I only had a Fast Warrior Army, but with the bigger warbands due to the Barbarian Infantry rules they do lack punch in the charge.

Regarding bolt shooters, as they never seem to be in the right place, I do like the cart mounted option, but I never have the spare points. I don't think just being on carts allows them to shoot overhead though.

Best Regards,

Raphael
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:03 am    Post subject:

This thread is really interesting for me.
I Play EIR(Danubian list- Aurelian [late period].
Couple of comments:
1) Bolt shooters are a problem- I have ranged from :Well, if I gotta get them lets get a lot of them. Result Nuke missiles but small army. I lose. I think Robert(one of my list gurus) is right get carts. Shoot 360 and OK you can't shoot over everything but at least you can shoot over somethings.
2) Barbarians in 12El units. We(MattK, MattW, me) had big debate over 12El v 9El. MattK(use 9El) point is use the extra saved points to get more units. Same as Todd and Mark and Robert are saying. MattW(use 12El) point is that they can take more punishment. As Todd says, player preference.
3)I have resisted for YEARS getting Sarmatians. As a Danubian player, they are my only ally. The Toddmeister (my personal list guru) endorses them. He now has me thinking maybe I should get them.
4) The reason your friend lost was because his Sacred Standard was not the WHITE SPEAR OF MAEVE. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Ed K
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:05 am    Post subject:

Forgot:
Mark is correct: in the late period, You can get 6El of L armed cav. Very helpful.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:35 pm    Post subject:

Ed is right AND you get them in the middle period as well BUT...

they're regular. There is a choice to be made between the movement advantages that regulars give you VS the extra impact that irregulars give you with the impetuous charge. 5@ 5 (lance vs. most +1 charging) = 20 VS 5@ 7 (same + Imp) = 30.

With the configuration of the EIR I would go with the Sarmatian Ally. Just my 2 cents.

Todd K

PS - I LOVE sling.... Great weapon.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject:

I did see the possibility of the Numeri as Regular - go with that! a 4E unit is 42 points. I also like 2E units as well.

Todd K

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject:

OK, you have me really thinking.
Where do I get Sarmatians?????
Ed the Sarmatanophil

PS. Love Slings also
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