Warrior Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
 
  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups AlbumAlbum   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Hohenstaufen List (Feudal Warrior #18) Input Requested
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Tactics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
wintercorn
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 15 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Hohenstaufen List (Feudal Warrior #18) Input Requested

Always enjoyed playing Hoehenstaufen and want to rebuild my 25mm army; although it has been a long time. Below is the list I seem to remember from back in the day and would like input. The primary tactic is simple, Almughavars go in hard and fast and blow up, disordering whatever they hit and the knights follow up hard and fast. The lights are there to create pin and flank opportunities (along with screening). The Xbows work in conjuction with the knights verses enemy knights (particularly SHKs).

1 x 1 CiC/PA Irr B EHK, L, Sh @145
1 x 1 Siculo-Ital bodygd Irr B EHK, L, Sh @48

1 x 1 Sub/P Irr B EHK, L, Sh @85
1 x 1 Siculo-Ital Bodygd Irr B EHK, L, Sh @48

1 x 2 Siculo-Ital Knights Irr B/C EHK, L, Sh @115
3 x 2 Spanish Knights Irr B HK, L, Sh @273
3 x 3 Muslim LC Rg C LC, B @138
2 x 4 Muslim LC Rg C LC, B, 1/2 Sh @132
1 x 4 Mercenary Xbows LHI CB @90
2 x 6 Almughavars Irr B LMI, hTW, JLS @194
2 x 8 Muslim Javlinmen Rg C LI, JLS, Sh @148
4 x 4 Muslim Bows Rg C, LI, B @136
1 x 8 Spanish Javlinmen Irr C, LI, JLS @57

21 Units; Scouting: 53.5pts; 1609

- Kevin Santos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ] Visit poster's website
lilroblis
Legionary
Legionary


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Cleveland Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Sicilian list

nice list - I prefer the bow as LMI - but this list would work well if you can win the lights battle. If not you may have a problem
Robert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
wintercorn
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 15 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject:

Yup, it all turns on the lights.


-Kevin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ] Visit poster's website
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject:

Hohenstafen is definitely one of the stronger lists. For combining knights with quality skirmishers it is certainly one of the very best, although recent play has favored Wallachians over Hohenstafen (more on that in a moment).

Your choice of LC unit sizes is odd. Generally regular light cav work best in either units of 6 elements (can start in a column, expand 2 to either side and still move full, or can be 2 wide 3 deep and move forward full while going into skirmish, etc.) or in units of 2 elements (move foward full and face 90 degrees, creating difficult flank charge possibiities your opponent must account for). You could reconfigure this into 6 element and 2 element units for the same cost.

I'm not convinced shields are worth it for the light cav. In today's era of abundant light cav that fight rank and a half, these guys aren't going to be going toe to toe with other light cav. Most of their combat opportunites come from either flank charges or chasing evaders, where shields don't matter. And at 2 points a figure, shields are pretty expensive.

It is worth considering getting the German SHC unit. Note that if this unit charges non-impetuously at the same pike unit that the Almughuvars are charging impetuously, the overwhelmingly likely result is that the pikes recoil (because they lost in a combat involving mounted) disordered (because they lost) and the SHC recoil not disordered (because they took less than 24, even on an up roll by the pikes). This means that next bound your Almughuvars are following up, which helps them a lot, and that the SHC can charge in again, and get the +2 for fighting disordered foot. This is a very handy way to demolish large pike units, and something SHC can do that EHK cannot.

Is the LHI CB unit required? I have a hard time seeing them offering more value than shielded LMI with bow, and as LHI they are expensive (extra 2 points per figure), and vulnerable (no shields).

With respect to the archers: you need to think carefully about whether you want at least some of the archers as LMI or all of them as LI. If you take them all as LI, then you're playing purely pin-and-punch and not looking to use shooting as a significant facet of your game plan. In that case, I'd strongly argue that Wallachians is a better list. Cheaper LI, better LC (mostly fight in a rank and a half, even the regulars), SHK available, and Irr A HK (which, dismounted, will deliver about as much shock power as the Almughuvars).

If you do take some of the archers as LMI, then 2 16 figure units give you a very nice anti-elephant battery, which can be a useful augmentation to the list's capabilities. I'd recommend going that route if you have your heart set on Hohenstafen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
wintercorn
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 15 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:39 am    Post subject:

wow! great incite and guidance, Mark. Many thanks.
I will adjust the list accordingly and re-post.

I saw Dave Stier use Hoenstaufen to great effect years ago and know what they can do in the right hands; I'm up for a challenge. Besides, it will make victory [cough, cough] Jake Kovel, come out and playeee-aaaa [cough, cough] that much sweeter .... LOL

- Kevin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ] Visit poster's website
wintercorn
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 15 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:39 am    Post subject: List Adjustment

1 x 1 CiC/PA Irr B EHK, L, Sh @145
1 x 1 Spanish Bodygd Irr B HK, L, Sh @33

1 x 1 Sub/P Irr B EHK, L, Sh @85
1 x 1 Spanish Bodygd Irr B HK, L, Sh @33

3 x 2 Siculo-Ital Knights Irr B/C EHK, L, Sh @345
1 x 2 German Mercs Rg C SHC, L, Sh @138
4 x 3 Muslim LC Rg C LC, B @184
2 x 2 Muslim LC Rg C LC, B @68
2 x 6 Almughavars Irr B LMI, hTW, JLS @194
2 x 4 Muslim Bows Rg C, LMI, B, Sh @148
1 x 6 Muslim Bows Rg C, LI, B, Sh @46
2 x 8 Muslim Javelinmen Rg C LI, JLS, Sh @148
1 x 4 Spanish Javelinmen Irr C, LI, JLS @57
Units: 20; Scouting: 61; Pts: 1609

I bought all the LC but I'm kind of hung on how to properly configure them. I've used 3 element units to very good effect in the past, especially for flanking inf blocks (move in column and turn 90 degrees, whipping the tail down the flank) and in tandem (2 or 3 columns move together then split up once the opponent commits / deploys). The down side of my LC congfig above is that neither the 3 element nor the 2 element units, individually, provide an effective missile platform; and, being somewhat brittle, if they route they fly back into your lines faster than they moved forward! Ideas?


- Kevin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ] Visit poster's website
jamiepwhite
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 213
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Almuguvar questions

Does the list have the option to give the mugs half shields or something? Shieldless HTW to me sounds up there with the shieldless galloglaich in the Irish lists, very flaky on a table due to the vulnerability to missile fire.

The six element units of LMI to me are wrong. If they are expendable shock foot troops, they should be in two element units. If they are supposed to stick around, you should think about 7 or 9 element units like you see the Japanese samurai units doing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1018

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:48 am    Post subject:

Nice eval......
Playing a Medieval German list. I can get SHC.
I never got it because I didn't think they were
fast enough or didn't hit hard enough to equal the
cost.
Yeah they are a cause of unease but I never seemed
to get it to work.
EK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
lilroblis
Legionary
Legionary


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Cleveland Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Hohenstofen

I like the 6 element units - but given they are shock troops - u may want 3 units of 6 men 1 of 18 - or 2X4 el 2 2el - if the 2element units get to charge they have done their job, but are very susceptible to a lancer charge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject:

The Almughuvars can be half shielded, and they need to be. Be sure to factor that into your cost.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1210
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:26 pm    Post subject:

If the Moogs are run isn't the SHC mandatory?

I'll check the list as well.

I agree with Mark - one of the sages of List Design IMO. Having some LMI B,Sh units are a must for this list to combat elephants and to provide your LC with protection and ability to advance vs. other, better LC.

Todd K

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1210
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject:

Kevin,

Here's one way to look at the list (more to come for sure)

CinC 2E Ir B EHK/HK L,Sh + PA - 190
Sub (same)+ P - 118

2x 2E Siclo_It Knights Ir B EHK/HK L,Sh - 103 (206)
2E Foreign Merc Knights Ir B EHK/HK L,Sh - 103
2E German Mer Knights Reg C HK L,Sh - 91

2x 6E Muslim Bowmen Reg C LMI B,Sh - 106 (212)
3x 4E Muslim Bowmen Reg C LMI B,Sh - 74 (222)

2x 4E Muslim Spear Reg C LHI/LMI Jls,Sh - 90 (180)

2x 6E Muslim Light Cav Reg C LC B - 82 (164)
4E Muslim Light Cav Reg C LC B - 58

2x 2E Muslim Jav Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26 (52)
1596

If you need more LI - take the 4E of Bowmen and make

2x 4E Muslim Javelinmen Reg C LI Jls,Sh 42 (84)
1604

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"


Last edited by Todd Kaeser on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1210
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:39 pm    Post subject:

Here is the SHC/Moog option


CinC 2E Ir B EHK L,Sh + PA - 202
Sub (same)+ P - 130

2x 2E Siclo-It Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh - 115 (230)

2E Spanish Knights Ir B HK L,Sh - 91
2E German Mer Knights Reg C SHC L,Sh - 122

3x 4E Muslim Bowmen Reg C LMI B,Sh - 74 (222)

2x 6E Muslim Light Cav Reg C LC B - 82 (164)
4E Muslim Light Cav Reg C LC B - 58

3x 2E Muslim Jav Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26 [78]

2x 4E Muslim Bowmen Reg C LI B,Sh 42 (84)

2x 2E Spanish Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls, 1/2 Sh - 52 (104)
6E Spanish Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls, 1/2 Sh - 106

1591

What is tougher in the late option (in order to get the Moogs) is that your knights are all EHK (adding 36 points) and the Germans are 122 and not 88 (or even 94 w/ EHK frontage) - even with the -8 for being SHC change made for Warrior.

I like the smaller Moog units as they can slip through gaps of LI/LMI/knights etc... and still hit really hard. The 6E unit is more of a "line unit) but could be swapped out for a 6E Bowmen unit for the same cost.

I don't like the loss of bowmen and LHI/LMI spearmen to pay for the additional cost of EHK back ranks, SHC, and Moogs.

That being said the Moogs are some of your best punch and in combo with knights they hit really hard. Similar type combos are offered in Berber and you can get regular LMI B,Sh as well, BUT your lights are much, much weaker.

The upgrades for the Ir B Siculo-It knights are okay to be Ir B I believe.

Todd K

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1210
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:50 pm    Post subject:

I have chosen less lights as the dense bowmen offer more opportunity for the knights to hit disordered troops.

The new deployment rules also take a little off the effectiveness of lights IMO.

I'll probably build this army in 25mm as well - love the regular loose bowmen and knights.

Todd K

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Kelly Wilkinson
Dictator
Dictator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4172
Location: Raytown, MO

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject: Berbers

Another list close to this one where you don't have to worry about the EHK is ....wait for it....


Berbers!
Also it's worth taking a second look at Feudal Spanish now that their Moogs can have the HTW as an option to the LTS that was in the earlier version.

kw
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Tactics All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group