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2015 NICT lists - please discuss
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Greg's Yuan

Frank Gilson wrote:
Greg Hauser – Yuan Dynasty

CinC 2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh/Reg C MC L,B + PA – 196
Sub 2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh /Reg C MC L,B + PA – 116
2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh /Reg C MC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
6E Reg C LC B – 82
6E Reg C LC B - 82
6E Reg C LC B - 82
2E Reg A/B LC B – 40
2E Reg A/B LC B - 40
6E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,B,PA/LTS,B,Sh – 110
6E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,B,PA/LTS,B,Sh - 110
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26

Here is Greg Hauser's Yuan list.

I see what Greg is trying to do, extending his philosophy of artillery to its ultimate extent, while skirmishing and hoping to shake something loose that lancers can charge.

However, this can be defused as the Stone Throwers have to shoot at nearest in arc, which could be skirmishers.

Even though Greg's LC fight 1.5 ranks, they don't have JLS, Shield and will generally not be able to be impetuous...so their ability to drive away enemy lights is not guaranteed.

I also hate C morale back ranks for high morale small units, especially generals!

I think here Greg should ditch one Stone Thrower unit, going with two should be enough...and make the CinC just a staff element so he can join one Stone Thrower to direct its fire (particularly if Greg ends up with a hill to put it on).

Fix up the morale, give a LC unit or two some JLS and perhaps front rank Sh...

The Korean foot are excellent.

Frank


There are several lists that are all very similar:
* Later Tang
* 10 Independent States
* Koryo Korean
* Yuan Mongol
* Ming Chinese (with Korean allies)

The choices between them are really a matter of individual taste:
* Later Tang - the best shock cavalry of this lot in the form of Tibetan SHC.
* The most balanced shock troops in the form of elephants working in tandem with firelance-armed LTS guys.
* Koryo Korean - the best balance of plentiful and efficient LTS,B guys who are primarily Reg D and can be equipped with either Pavisse or Shield, which is the perfect combination.
* Yuan - Excellent artillery and an abundance of Mongol cav.
* Ming - Equally excellent artillery, less abundant Mongols, but potent shock cav in the form of firelance armed EHC.

Artillery aside, I'd favor 10 Independent States as offering the best balance of threats to the widest array of opponents, but the margin of difference here is small.

But artillery makes a big difference. This is a big thing that has changed in the current deployment rules; artillery are now much more viable, and can more easily be placed in a useful position on the battlefield. No one has put more thought into this than Greg, and he's had some demonstrable success with artillery.

I suspect that Ming would be a better list to accomplish the same goals. The EHC with firelance are really powerful (no other cavalry beats pikemen straight up). And I'm with Frank -- drop one of the artillery units, and add some punch to other units with the points.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Anglo Irish - 1601 – Phil Gardocki
CinC 2E Ir B HK/HC L,Sh + PA – 164
2E Irish Lancers Ir B HC L,Sh – 79
2E Irish Lancers Ir B HC L,Sh - 79
2E Irish Lancers Ir B HC L,Sh - 79
Ally 8E Galloglaich (6E HI, 2E MI) Ir B 2HCW,Jls,D – 281
8E Galloglaich (6E HI, 2E MI) Ir B 2HCW,Jls,D – 233
8E Galloglaich (5E HI, 3E MI) Ir B 2HCW,Jls,D – 225
4E Irish Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,Sh – 73
12E Bonachts Ir C LMI 4E 2HCW,Jls,Sh, 5E Jls,Sh, 3E Jls – 136
12E Longbow Reg D MI LB ˝ Sh + stakes – 142
6E Kerns Ir C LI S,Sh/Jls - 55
6E Kerns Ir C LI S,Sh/Jls – 55


Not much to say about this one. 12 units is simply not enough. You will get pinned by enemy lights and skirmishers, and then taken apart in detail by your opponent lining up exactly the matchups he wants on some of your largae, immobile, non-skirmishing units.

The Galloglaich are fierce against a lot of opponents, but it's unclear how you get them to where they need to be. This is a counter-punching army, meaning your opponent dictates the matchups rather than you.

At a bare minimum take less HI, take the longbowmen as loose order, and split them into smaller units. For 20 points you can get 3 16 figure units that can skirmish and operate in any terrain, rather than one big block that has to be in the open.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:45 am    Post subject:

With this army wouldn't he have to get the HI since the Gallo... guys would be really dead if they were MI.
I see the LB unit but if he wanted to cover a flank wouldn't the bigger unit be better.
Ed the Inquiring Mind
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:55 am    Post subject: Poking my nose in

No, I don't really have time for this yet Smile. But Todd, Mark et al are doing sterling service here, and I'm on a small high from the excellent tournament a couple of days ago, so at least a start. I'll follow Mark's lead and start with Frank's Byzantines:
Quote:
CinC 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh + PA – 201
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh + PA –131
- a couple of generals are useful for prompt points, and getting reg lancers charging impetuously
2E Reg B EHC/HC L,B,Sh – 94
- These 2E fill out the required loose lancers


Mmm. That's more than 400 points of troops that are clearly not useless, but in some ways marginal. EHC are the worst cavalry that can't skirmish; there's really not very much that they can beat head-on, and a lot of stuff that routs them on contact; they're very manouvreable, but the army is not that big so it's unlikely that they'll be able to get around that many flanks against good opposition. So the expensive 'shock' core of the army isn't very shock.

Quote:
2E Reg B SHC/EHC L,Sh – 109
- Kataphrakt unit permits me to cut required other lancer minimum to 4E, and charging in tandem with Varangians this beat a lot of infantry
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
- Given the other troops on this version, only 8E of the max 12E are needed


This is the good stuff. Varangians are splendid (if expensive!) and the SHC/EHC combination with them is a killer. Only one unit of SHC/EHC is a tough call, and I think I might try hard to get another so you can hit in more than one punch. But maybe not - the rest of the army is regular enough to get you the schwerpunkt that you want, probably, and they’re all expensive.

Quote:
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
- I sought to make use of the excellent Skutatoi and play an 'in your face' style game, these guys are awesome against everything except SHK


All Reg C? I don’t have the list itself, but these would be better as D class if possible. And they’re tough: small enough and slow enough to avoid. That’s a lot of close foot, but not enough to be really en masse, and the rest of the army is a manouvre/finesse build. Not quite convinced, although in 25mm with new deployment they’re better: these are certainly hard to kill.

That’s 10 units, and the entire fighting line: 16E of which 8E is close foot. That’s *small*. I like quality - but that’s small, and vulnerable to being swarmed on open-ish tables perhaps. I believe that Frank fought a couple of LC armies, and there’s really not a good way to fight them - I would have expected (I think Mark makes this comment) at least some LMI bowmen somewhere.

Quote:
4E Psiloi Reg D (1C) LI Jls,Sh – 36
2E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26
2E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26
- I like to have some Reg LI JLS,Sh for terrain and to chase off non-JLS enemey LI
6 E Psiloi Reg D LI B ˝ Sh – 40
- Some space filling and shooting LI, cheap, flexible
2E Reg B LC B – 38
2E Reg B LC B - 38
2E Reg B LC B - 38
6E Reg C LC B – 82


Nothing really objectionable, although LC B that fights only 1 rank is increasingly a second-rate troop type (much to my Sassanids’ chagrin). No issues here, although dealing with large enemy LI units is going to be a challenge for the army overall, and dealing with enemy LC is as noted potentially unmanageable.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject:

Best part of the EHC is that they can evade if charged without adopting skirmish, if they are going to get caught in said evade they can turn around and countercharge the unsuspecting unit, AND they can charge like the dickens through the Skuts who are in Crusader formation.

While they aren't total shock troops their flexibility is remarkable and quite useful.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Agree with Todd. The Byz EHC and Skut "pods", if you know what you're doing, are really effective. Frank and I took similar, key word is similar, approaches to list compilation when it came to those troop types.

The main difference is he armed everybody with a missile weapon and I did not. I had my own reasons for that based on what I did/learned several years back running my same E Byz list during the Theme.

These troop types are flying under everybody's radar. Cool

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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Abyssinian Todd Kaeser– 1603 points

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) – 174
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 97

4E Light Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,D,Sh (EP) - 89

2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105
2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105

12E spearmen LMI 1/4 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 3/4 Ir C Jls,Sh - 160
12E spearmen LMI 1/4 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 3/4 Ir C Jls,Sh - 160

10E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 125
10E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 125
4E Portuguese Musketeers Reg C LHI/LMI 1HCW,CB 1/2Sh – 98

6E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh – 61
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49


Todd knows very well that I hate this list Smile. It’s irregular and cumbersome, none of the troops can really force a fight that they will then win, it’s very very inefficient (irregular LI in small units? lots of C morale? darts on mounted? etc) - and so on. It’s maybe taken as well as possible, but it is never going to win a tournament, and only Todd’s skill lets it ever win a game.

(I know: what do I _really_ think?)

What do I hate most, though? OK. The elephants are terrible: no pike, only 2 crew, small units. The EHC are really terrible: contrast to the Byzantines. These are irregular and have dart rather than bow; they’re also IrrA which can be OK in combat but makes them only viable as a reserve force, further isolating the elephants. The LC are bad and isolated; the LI - especially the slingers - are just free units for an opponent. An army of irregulars relying on mass should cover frontage: this doesn’t.

[If I were somehow forced to play this, how would I try to win? Probably, fight on a small frontage with perhaps the bowmen refusing the center and everything massed on one side of that, then use the EHC to prevent enemy foot from skirmishing and hit them with the LMI, hoping to roll up on contact. Hide the elephants some place, likely with the LC on the edge of the table; they probably can oppose enemy LC although even there vulnerable to bowfire. Hide the LI. Use the Portugese in some central terrain piece just beside the bowmen to delay and act as hinge while the spearmen swing around.]

Enough; leave this here, hoping never to return, and move on Smile.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject:

Aha - on Todd's note above, I had not noticed a special rule for Byzantine EHC being able to evade as a charge response. That *is* very useful.

In general I am not au fait with many of the newer special rules; I should become so!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Nothing much to add on Matt's Alexandrian list: I agree completely with Mark that 1/4 HI is the way to go on the pike and that you need more LI.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Ewan McNay wrote:
Aha - on Todd's note above, I had not noticed a special rule for Byzantine EHC being able to evade as a charge response. That *is* very useful.

In general I am not au fait with many of the newer special rules; I should become so!


Yes, without the Byzantine special rules...the list would be very different, and the cavalry expensive and not that great. With those rules, the EHC aren't shock troops, per se, but extremely flexible.

They can recall as a charge response (or shooting response if they don't wish to charge or waver). If caught, they can claim to be counter-charging!

Put the Kontaratoi in Crusader order and the EHC/HC can charge through them OR recall back through them.

The Kontaratoi can only be 1/2 D class...very awkward. I wanted a solid area of very tough troops that the cavalry could move around behind/near and use special rules as necessary. These HI/MI fight two full ranks, as well. The armor, darts and JLS are all necessary to make various math work out...they obliterate elephants and withstanding SHK/SHC charges (but not if the opponent rolls up and you don't, sadly, which is another reason not to buy Ds...you need any + on a combat you can get).

I knew I'd have trouble with SHK...and I did...two draws for those matchups, I very convincingly won the other 3 matches.

Enemy LC are dealt with by a combination of foot missiles (Darts and Javelins) and EHC bows.

Frank
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:51 pm    Post subject:

Hmm. Those are very powerful rules - I can see that they would make the EHC go from being targets to almost unkillable, if played correctly.

AND two full ranks of LTS, JLS? Yeesh. OK, I understand the basis for the army choice. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: JLS

Strictly speaking you get 12 with LTS and JLS+ and 4 with LTS...from two full ranks on Kontaratoi. The JLS+ does not extend to all.

But...good enough...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:51 am    Post subject:

Just a short comment on the virtues of EHC against enemy LC.

Many years ago Dave Stier and I played Tibetans at Cold Wars, and tied for 1st place against Lenney Hermann and Dave Mara running Seleucids. This was WRG 7th, prior to rank and half lance. What Dave had figured out was that inserting SHC on the front line of the wing in between LC units really destroyed opposing LC. The SHC added enough density of fire to tip the balance, and were impervious to return fire.

In actuality EHC work just about as well. interleave them with your LC and you'll have enough combined firepower to consistently do 2CPF, often 3CPF and drive back enemy lights. While EHC are quite a bit more vulnerable to missile fire compared to SHC, they are still pretty sturdy in the face of missile fire from lights, and having the 160 tactical move as opposed to merely 120 for SHC has its advantages.

So there is definitely an approach with Byzantines for dealing with enemy light troops. It's the enemy knights -- SHK in particular -- that are a problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:03 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Tepanec - Bill Low

CinC 4E Reg A LMI 1HCW,D,Sh (1E S instead of D) PA – 151
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110

4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110

4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh – 106
4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh – 106
4E Subject War. Reg C LMI 1HCW,Jls,Sh – 90
4E Otomi Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls/Jls,Sh – 67

2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64

2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh – 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh – 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh – 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26


I'll keep this short, since much of what I think I've said before.

First off, I would never play a Meso American list. Ever. But if I had to play one, this would be the list. There is simply no way to come to grips with these guys without passing through a storm of slings. No mounted troop type wants to do that, and frankly neither do most loose order foot troops. The close order foot who can handle this volume of sling fire have no ability to chase down the Tepanec foot.

Even if you do survive the sling fire, your reward if you're mounted is fighting LTS guys while tired and perhaps disordered. No mounted want to do that. You might end up fighting 2HCT, but that's not really any better. And if you're foot closing in, you want to avoid the 2HCT guys and hopefully end up fighting the LTS guys while keeping the Otomi off your flanks. Not an easy task.

And if you do, despite all that, find yourself engaged against something you can beat, the neighboring enemy units will almost certainly be A/B class, and thus very likely to pass any wavers. So you have to assume you must destroy this army one unit at a time, rather than through a cascade of failed waver tests.

That's an almost impossible task. On the other hand, there are three significant downsides that the Tepanacs face.

First is the lack of frontage coverage. Given the preponderance of terrain we see on tables these days, this will often not be an issue. On more open tables where it is an issue, Bill tries to compensate with enough LI to at least slow down flank envelopment. But the LI are extremely vulnerable, which leads to the second downside.

No mounted. This means that LI cannot be stiffened with mounted (typically lancers) to their rear. And it means that there's nothing that can easily chase down a skirmishing and evading opponent. It's far too easy for the Tepanecs to lose LI to aggressive enemy LC, and they have no way to hunt down enemy LC (or other enemy light troops). And this really leads us to the third downside.

No ability to force the issue against a cautious opponent. I have no doubt that a player of Bill's caliber with an army of this quality can make it through the Nationals without a loss. But somewhere along the way there is going to be something like a 1-1 draw that will simply take the Tepanecs out of the running, given the way our scoring system works.

And that's while I'll never play a Meso American list.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject:

Mark,

Having been a Meso-American player for the past 30 years I will come to the defense of said armies. What you have said regarding the weaknesses resonates as being reasonably accurate BUT having played them before I don't see them as truly horrific and are worthy of playing.

The sling gives a reasonable reach for the army - they are also all Regular LMi and move 120p. I have been able to be aggressive in the face of reluctant opponents and in a few turns I find myself on their side of the board (despite being outscouted in almost every occasion) and pushing towards their rear/camp area. I've come very close to looting camps with Tepanec/Aztec in the past and have even surrounded reluctant opponents on both flanks (hostages for sacrifice).

Yes - enemy LC is often a problem and sometime my opponent tries to overwhelm the area with LC. Just like your idea of running an EHC unit interspersed with the LC for Byzantines - I can run a unit of sling armed LMI either near or even in line and am more than able to not only save the LC but shoot it away disordered and tired. If/when they roll short (being irreg often) I can move up and give them a waiver test possibly leading to a shake and rout.

I typically run a few less units of LI than Bill does but I don't often lose them to my opponent - maybe one to two a game is typical.

Front coverage is an issue I agree with but can often be overcome with play at times. The army benefits from decent morale allowing units to operate in space and only worry about the dreaded "1" roll for wavers.

Certainly a "give it a whirl" army is requested on my part and you may see the benefits of such a fun and colorful army.

When I take the field with them I really only worry about the super Macedonians and the ability of the pike to shed through mass shooting without being halted, nor do they fear the Otomi because they can countercharge impetuous foot.... Other than that I don't have a fear on the table but will respect my opponent.

my 2 cents on the army

Todd

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Last edited by Todd Kaeser on Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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