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2015 NICT lists - please discuss
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: 2015 NICT lists - please discuss

NICT

1) Ewan McNay, Sassanid Persian, 55.9
2) Bill Low, Tepanec, 41.8
3) Frank Gilson, Nikephorian Byzantine, 36
4) Greg Hauser, Yuan Chinese, 34.3
5) Dan Woyke, Prussian, 30.6
6) Todd Kaeser, Abyssinian, 30.5
7) Matt Kollmer, Alexandrian Imperial, 30.3
8 ) Scott McDonald, Moldavian, 30.2
9) Phil Gardocki, 28.9
10) Rich Novak/Scott Holder, Sassanid Persian/Early Byzantine, 26.4
11) Terry Dix, Mongol, 25.3
12) Rich Kroupa, Hunnic, 24.1
13) Mark Stone, Early Polish, 19.6
14) Jake Kovel, Early Polish, 13.1



I am still missing Terry Dix’s Mongol list and Dan Woyke’s Prussian list and Matt’s Pict list


Abyssinian Todd Kaeser– 1603 points

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) – 174
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 97

4E Light Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,D,Sh (EP) - 89

2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105
2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105

12E spearmen LMI 1/4 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 3/4 Ir C Jls,Sh - 160
12E spearmen LMI 1/4 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 3/4 Ir C Jls,Sh - 160

10E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 125
10E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 125
4E Portuguese Musketeers Reg C LHI/LMI 1HCW,CB 1/2Sh – 98

6E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh – 61
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49



Matt Kollmer - Alexandrian Imperial (CW 23)

CinC 2E Reg A HC L – 150
Sub 2E Reg A HC L – 100
2E Companions Reg A HC L – 70
2E Companions Reg A HC L – 70
6E Bactrian Ir C LC Jls,B – 85
4E Skythians Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh – 89
4E Hypastpists Reg B LHI LTS,Sh – 122
4E Hypastpists Reg B LHI LTS,Sh – 122
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
2E Elephants Ir C 1 w/ Jls, 1 w/ P – 105
2E Elephants Ir C 1 w/ Jls, 1 w/ P – 105
4E Agrainians Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 42
4E Peltasts Reg C LMI LTS,Jls,Sh – 90

Total 1600
Scouting - 40

Tepanec - Bill Low

CinC 4E Reg A LMI 1HCW,D,Sh (1E S instead of D) PA – 151
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110

4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110
4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh – 110

4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh – 106
4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh – 106
4E Subject War. Reg C LMI 1HCW,Jls,Sh – 90
4E Otomi Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls/Jls,Sh – 67

2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh – 64

2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh – 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh – 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh – 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26

Scouting 6 points 1600

Ewan McNay, Sassanid Persian. * indicates elephant-proof.

CinC alone on his elephant, Irr B, with PA 115
Irr B Subgeneral as SHC L,B,Sh + 1E IrrB EHC L,B* 129
Irr B Subgeneral as SHC L,B,Sh + 1E IrrB EHC L,B* 129
Irr B Subgeneral as SHC L,B,Sh + 1E IrrB EHC L,B* 129
4E Irr B HC L,B 121
3 Irr B El: 2 with 4 crew and 1 with 2 crew 175
3 Irr B El: 2 with 4 crew and 1 with 2 crew 175
6E Reg D LC B* 82
6E Reg D LC B, with 2E made elephant proof 74
8E Reg MI (7D, 1C): 4 LTS, JLS, Sh / 4 B, 1E caltrops 114
3E Reg D LC B*, 1E JLS 48
3E Reg D LC B*, 1E JLS, Sh 52
12E Irr LI (11D, 1C) B, 6E w/ Sh 63 63
6E Irr LI JLS, half Sh (5D, 1C) 45
6E Reg D LI S, Sh 46
4E Reg D LI JLS, Sh 34
4E Reg D LI JLS, Sh 34
4E Reg D LI JLS, Sh 34


Total 1599

Frank Gilson – Nikephorian Byz

CinC 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh + PA – 201
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh + PA –131
2E Reg B EHC/HC L,B,Sh – 94
2E Reg B SHC/EHC L,Sh – 109
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
4E Psiloi Reg D (1C) LI Jls,Sh – 36
2E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26
2E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26
6 E Psiloi Reg D LI B ½ Sh – 40
2E Reg B LC B – 38
2E Reg B LC B - 38
2E Reg B LC B - 38
6E Reg C LC B – 82

Mark Stone – Early Polish

CinC 2E Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh -196
Sub 2E Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh – 136
2E Knights Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh – 124
2E Knights Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh - 124
2E Knights Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh - 124
2E Knights Ir B SHK/EHK L,Sh – 124
6E Ir C LC Jls,B/B - 79
6E Ir C LC Jls,B/B - 79
4E Ir B LC L,Jls,Sh – 89
4E Ir B LC L,Jls,Sh – 89
8E Ir C MI LTS,B,Sh – 153
9E Ir C 1/3 LHI 2/3 LMI Jls,Sh – 124
4E Ir C LI S,Sh – 49
6E Ir C LI B ½ Sh – 55
6E Ir C LI B ½ Sh – 55


Greg Hauser – Yuan Dynasty

CinC 2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh/Reg C MC L,B + PA – 196
Sub 2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh /Reg C MC L,B + PA – 116
2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh /Reg C MC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
6E Reg C LC B – 82
6E Reg C LC B - 82
6E Reg C LC B - 82
2E Reg A/B LC B – 40
2E Reg A/B LC B - 40
6E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,B,PA/LTS,B,Sh – 110
6E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,B,PA/LTS,B,Sh - 110
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26


Anglo Irish - 1601 – Phil Gardocki
CinC 2E Ir B HK/HC L,Sh + PA – 164
2E Irish Lancers Ir B HC L,Sh – 79
2E Irish Lancers Ir B HC L,Sh - 79
2E Irish Lancers Ir B HC L,Sh - 79
Ally 8E Galloglaich (6E HI, 2E MI) Ir B 2HCW,Jls,D – 281
8E Galloglaich (6E HI, 2E MI) Ir B 2HCW,Jls,D – 233
8E Galloglaich (5E HI, 3E MI) Ir B 2HCW,Jls,D – 225
4E Irish Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,Sh – 73
12E Bonachts Ir C LMI 4E 2HCW,Jls,Sh, 5E Jls,Sh, 3E Jls – 136
12E Longbow Reg D MI LB ½ Sh + stakes – 142
6E Kerns Ir C LI S,Sh/Jls - 55
6E Kerns Ir C LI S,Sh/Jls – 55



Rich Kroupa – Huns – 1602

CinC 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 150
Sub 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 100
Sub 2E Ir B Jls,B ½ Sh – 68
2E Ir D LI B ½ Sh – 29
2E Ir D LI B ½ Sh – 29
9E Franks Ir D (3 C) MI HTW,Sh – 109
9E Franks Ir D (3 C) MI HTW,Sh – 109
4E Camels Ir C MCM Jls,B,Sh – 97
4E Camels Ir C MCM Jls,B,Sh – 97
6E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 97
4E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 73
4E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 73
4E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 73
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 85


Jake Kovel – Early Polish
CinC 2E Ir B EHK L,Sh – 190
6E Ir C LI S,Sh - 61
4E Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B – 69
6E Ir C LMI 2HCW,Sh/Jls,Sh - 79
6E Ir C LMI 2HCW,Sh/Jls,Sh - 79
6E Ir C HI 2HCT,B,Sh/ MI Jls,B,Sh - 157
6E Ir C HI 2HCT,B,Sh/ MI Jls,B,Sh - 157

Sub 2E Ir B EHK L,Sh – 130
2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh – 115
2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh – 115
2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh – 115
2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh – 115
6E Cavalry Ir B LC Jls,B,Sh - 121
6E Cavalry Ir B LC Jls,B,Sh - 121


Scott Holder – Early Byzantine
CinC 2E Reg A/B EHC L, B, Sh PA - 207
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC L, B, Sh P – 137
2E Reg B HC L, Sh - 76
2E Reg B HC L, Sh - 76
2E Reg B HC L, Sh - 76
2E Reg B HC L, Sh - 76

2E Reg B LC Jls,Sh – 46
2E Reg B LC Jls,Sh – 46
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,Sh – 106
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,Sh – 106
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,Sh – 106
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,Sh – 106

4E Reg C LMI Jls,D,Sh - 90
4E Reg C LMI Jls,D,Sh - 90

4E Reg C LMI B ½ Sh – 66
4E Reg C LMI B ½ Sh – 66

4E Psiloi Reg C LI S,Sh – 42
4E Psiloi Reg C LI S,Sh - 42
4E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 42


Terry Dix - Mongol
CinC Reg A/B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 155
Sub Reg A/B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 105
Sub Reg A/B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 105
4E Nobles Reg A/B HC L,B,Sh - 148
4E Nobles Reg A/B HC L,B,Sh - 148

4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82
4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82
4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82
4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82

7E Turks Ir C LC 3E Jls,B,Sh 4E B - 99
7E Turks Ir C LC B - 81
6E Turks Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 91
2E Skir Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 46
2E Skir Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 46
2E Nobles Reg B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 76
2E Nobles Reg B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 76
6E Skri Reg B LC B - 94
1598
155 scouting

Rich Novak – Sassanid Persian

Caveat: This is NOT a legal list. But I was also pretty sure that wasn't a constraining factor given that the troops were not available to make it so..
CinC with PA in 2E Reg A EHC L, B, Sh
3x Subs as 2E SHC L, B, Sh/EHC L, B
2x8E MI: 4E LTS, JLS, Sh/4E B
3E LC Reg D JLS, B, Sh (because he only had 3 LC elements!)
There was an LI unit, but only one, again b/c no troops - I think maybe 6E Reg D S, Sh?
[The illegality of the list is lack of light troops - I think that's the only issue. Which is hardly an advantage;

2x2El Irr B 2 JLS, 2 B
The rest of the list was 4E units of IrrB HC L, B - Rich had a lot of lancers and very little else. So add those as appropriate to get to 1600 points. If I had had more than 45 seconds to do this I might have considered buying everyone shields - Oh well. And I didn't check the math given that I was already late for my own NICT game - sorry :-/

I made all the SHC, the LC, and one of the HC units elephant-proof.

Dan Woyke - Prussian

CinC 1E Ir B LC Jls,Sh - 122
4x 2E Cav Ir B LC Jls,Sh - 53 (212)
3x 9E Prussian Foot Ir A/C/C LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh/Jls,Sh/Jls,Sh - 133 (399)
3x 4E Prussian Foot Ir A/C LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh/Jls,Sh - 79 (237)
2E Skirm Ir C/D LI Jls,Sh - 35

Sub 2E Ir B EHK/HC L,Sh - 137
4x 2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh - 115 (460)

1602
28 scouting

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ghauser90
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:13 am    Post subject:

So Todd You made one mistake on my list all the EHC was backed by MC Reg C L,B
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:40 pm    Post subject:

I've resent you Matt's lists (including the Picts) and Terry's list. Please confirm receipt, chop chop.

Regarding Rich N's list, Ewan had to do it last minute with what lead Rich brought. I gave approval for the list going forward. Rich hasn't played Warrior in over a decade so I made allowances. Wink

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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject:

ghauser90 wrote:
So Todd You made one mistake on my list all the EHC was backed by MC Reg C L,B


Greg - just had to guess as the list you sent to Scott (and then him to me) did not include that information. It just said Reg C L,B

Trying - appreciate the help.

Todd

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: My take on Nikephoran

I played the following Nikephoran version, as above...thought I'd put my notes down to kick this off:
CinC 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh + PA – 201
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh + PA –131
- a couple of generals are useful for prompt points, and getting reg lancers charging impetuously
2E Reg B EHC/HC L,B,Sh – 94
- These 2E fill out the required loose lancers
2E Reg B SHC/EHC L,Sh – 109
- Kataphrakt unit permits me to cut required other lancer minimum to 4E, and charging in tandem with Varangians this beat a lot of infantry
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
4E Varangians Reg B (1A) LHI/LMI 2HCW,Jls,Sh – 126
- Given the other troops on this version, only 8E of the max 12E are needed
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh - 122
4E Skut Reg C HI/MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh – 122
- I sought to make use of the excellent Skutatoi and play an 'in your face' style game, these guys are awesome against everything except SHK
4E Psiloi Reg D (1C) LI Jls,Sh – 36
2E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26
2E Psiloi Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26
- I like to have some Reg LI JLS,Sh for terrain and to chase off non-JLS enemey LI
6 E Psiloi Reg D LI B ½ Sh – 40
- Some space filling and shooting LI, cheap, flexible
2E Reg B LC B – 38
2E Reg B LC B - 38
2E Reg B LC B - 38
6E Reg C LC B – 82
- 4E more than required, some Reg B for making counters, these bump up scouting total and fill some space...they're generally not here to attack

My AAR is elsewhere Wink...

http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17488

Great as long as you don't face SHK, particularly SHK with more scouting than you.

Frank
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject:

Since Frank has kicked things off, I'll start with his list.

First point, and I'll keep it simple because people really need to understand this: in their current incarnation, Nikephoran Byzantine and Komnenan Byzantine represent two of the highest quality lists around. This is largely because of the quality of the Varangians, and the interaction between the Varangians and the Byzantine cavalry.

Still have doubts? Last year Derek won with Komnenan, and this year Frank finished 3rd with Nikephoran. These lists don't just look good on paper; they are getting results.

Here's a bit of the evolution we've gone through: if you have a preference for armies showcasing European lance-armed troops, then you always have a dilemma. Your strong cavalry needs to charge in combination with strong foot in order to succeed against the toughest foot opponents. But how do you find the right foot to pair with your cav? Typically in order for foot and cav to charge together, the foot mus be impetuous, and this necessitates that the foot follow up if opponents recoil. Yet following up takes away the first contact advantage that makes most of your foot powerful. Hence the dilemma. Almughuvars lose the HTW factor on the second bound; 2HCW troops become shieldless in follow up. What to do?

Enter the Varangians, who can charge non-impetuously together with Byzantine cav. Suddenly the dilemma is resolved. Your cavalry assures that your opponent will recoil disordered for facing mounted, and the Varangians assure that your opponent will recoil, because there's no foot that can take a Varangian charge at the halt and fare well. And, since the Varangians are not impetuous, they are not obliged to follow up, but can instead charge in again next bound counting shielded. On top of that, Varangians are pretty ferocious in the face of elephants, the one troop type your lancers really worry about.

Around this core the Nikephoran list offers lots of good support troops. You have regular, shielded LI, plenty of LC, and some regular loose order shooters. All good stuff.

Frank makes the choice to use the Kontaratoi, which is not the choice I would make, but it is a valid way to go. The usual knock on close order troops is that they are too slow to get to contact. This is somewhat mitigated by our current deployment rules, but even so I find that if I don't want to fight close order foot I don't have to. Frank further mitigates the problem by arming his foot with darts, meaning they just have to get to shooting range to have influence. The Kontaratoi are excellent against elephants, solid against enemy mounted, and give the Byzantine cavalry something to recall behind in the face of superior cav like SHK. I would still prefer to run more loose order shooters, and rely on volume of fire along with ability to skirmish away as a means of dealing with opponents. To some extent it's a choice based on playing style.

The Byzantine lists are vulnerable to a well-played knight army. SHK are just better than EHC, and can easily rout EHC at contact if given the chance. Nor do the Varangians want to face any kind of serious lance-armed cavalry. Even the Kontaratoi have to be careful. While they're fine against SHK, they are quite vulnerable to the same knights dismounted as SHI.

This year we saw a lot more knight/cavalry armies and a lot fewer pike and elephant armies. That may prove to be something of a trend. If so, that will count somewhat against Nikephoran Byzantine, but overall a well balance army with a lot of punch and a variety of threats delivered by troops who are predominantly regular and thus highly maneuverable.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:49 pm    Post subject:

Moving on to another list:

Quote:
Abyssinian Todd Kaeser– 1603 points

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) – 174
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir A EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 103
2E Heavy Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,D,Sh (EP) - 97

4E Light Cavalry Ir C LC Jls,D,Sh (EP) - 89

2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105
2E Elephants Ir C dr. Jls & 1 Jls - 105

12E spearmen LMI 1/4 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 3/4 Ir C Jls,Sh - 160
12E spearmen LMI 1/4 Ir A 2HCW,Jls,Sh 3/4 Ir C Jls,Sh - 160

10E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 125
10E Bowmen Ir C MI B 1/2 Sh – 125
4E Portuguese Musketeers Reg C LHI/LMI 1HCW,CB 1/2Sh – 98

6E Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh – 61
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49
4E Slingers Ir C LI S,Sh – 49


This list was discussed quite a bit list year. I think Todd's done some refinements, but many of the comments still stand. So I'll try to restrict myself to new thoughts.

In principle I like the MI B,Sh troop type, but only as D class troops. Otherwise they're too expensive. They give this army some decent shooting that will mess with enemy cav in a big way, but it's a lot of points in units that are quite vulnerable to Macedonian pike, troops in testudo, or dismounted knights. Most armies these days offer at least one of those threats.

I'm still not sold on the big 12 figure blocks of irregs. They create a real headache for pike and elephant players, but aren't much of a threat to cavalry armies, and in addition pose the problem of how to keep Irreg As from charging when you don't want them to.

Finally, from my own experience this NICT, I have to say that armies entirely of irregulars (yeah, I know, the Portuguese unit is reg, but still...) are really unwieldy. This is an army you need to get set up correctly, because you sure aren't going to be making adjustments on the fly.

So a colorful army, an interesting one, and one that presents a certain degree of menace, but not one I'd consider a prime time NICT army.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
In principle I like the MI B,Sh troop type...but it's a lot of points in units that are quite vulnerable to...troops in testudo...


Sigh. Yes, this is true if the player running such troops remembers that they can go into testudo. But yeah, my Skuts, if I played the game more than 3 times a year and didn't have a memory full of holes, would have trashed these guys. Everything lined up just like I wanted but he shot me into halts. That itself is a cautionary tale tho because it means you just can't walz up there with anything and expect to move forward with aplomb.


Quote:
I'm still not sold on the big 12 figure blocks of irregs. They create a real headache for pike and elephant players, but aren't much of a threat to cavalry armies, and in addition pose the problem of how to keep Irreg As from charging when you don't want them to.


I think the big 12E Irr blocks with the front rank of Irr A are great and under appreciated. Where I disagree with how Todd did this was giving the front rank 2HCW. I keep saying this and nobody believes me (except Bill who I got the idea from in the first place). The idea is to hit, pin, and last long enough for a big up roll or two. I know that approach is an anethema to the hyper-calculating Warrior crowd (Chris Damour being a notable exception to that characterization) but it can be made to work. These units, without the 2HCW, have far more staying power than you'd expect from Irregs.

All this said, I don't think we have to worry about Todd rolling out the Abyssinians next year for the NICT.

scott

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:34 pm    Post subject:

Scott raises a really good point here. While there are lots of folks who will treat Irr A's as a "one shot" that you hope roll up at contact, that's actually not the best way to use them. With only a 42% chance of rolling up, you're going to fail more often than not with that approach.

Instead what you want is to maximize the chances of an up roll. There are a couple of ways to do this:
* One approach is as Scott describes - have big, durable units that are built to minimize damage received so that they will be in a combat over several bounds, during one of which they will presumably roll up. My odds of getting at least one up roll in one bound are 42%. My odds of getting at least one up roll in three bounds are 80%. This approach is best suited to irregular foot bodies.
* The other approach is to have several smaller units that all hit at once, and hope that one of them rolls up. They need to be durable enough to not vaporize on contact, but mainly they need to be maneuverable enough to have a chance at lining them all up together. My odds of getting at least one up roll with one unit are 42%. My odds of getting at least one up roll with any of three units charging together are 80%. This approach is best suited to mounted units such as EHC or HK.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:28 pm    Post subject:

Moving on to the next list:

Quote:
Matt Kollmer - Alexandrian Imperial (CW 23)

CinC 2E Reg A HC L – 150
Sub 2E Reg A HC L – 100
2E Companions Reg A HC L – 70
2E Companions Reg A HC L – 70
6E Bactrian Ir C LC Jls,B – 85
4E Skythians Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh – 89
4E Hypastpists Reg B LHI LTS,Sh – 122
4E Hypastpists Reg B LHI LTS,Sh – 122
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
4E Phalangites Reg C ½ HI ½ MI P,Sh - 90
2E Elephants Ir C 1 w/ Jls, 1 w/ P – 105
2E Elephants Ir C 1 w/ Jls, 1 w/ P – 105
4E Agrainians Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 42
4E Peltasts Reg C LMI LTS,Jls,Sh – 90

Total 1600
Scouting - 40


Alex Imp is a really strong list, and Matt does a number of important things right with how he has put together the list. I've talked at length about the virtues of combined arms tactics for taking down pike blocks, and the various lists that offer the right combo of mounted and foot to accomplish this kind of combined arms attack. All of that, however, is predicated on the assumption that your opponent presents a pike unit that is at least two elements wide.

By taking all the pikes as 4 element units, Matt gives himself the option of avoiding that risk. Taking down a 1 wide, 4 deep pike unit that is HI in the front is a much tougher proposition.

I also like the choice of loose order foot here. It's tempting to see the Hypaspists as just slightly weaker pikemen, but the extra move distance and the ability to operate in terrain makes them vitally important. Always take these guys on this list. And Ewan has talked at length about the virtues of peltasts; I agree, and having at least one peltast unit is essential.

So what are the problems here? Well, when you plan on operating all your pikes in 1x4 columns, you naturally find that your pikes occupy a good bit less frontage. Taking them all as half HI is not a small point commitment, which limits what else you can take. The net result is an army that doesn't actually hold that much frontage. The entire contingent of light troops here is two units of LC and one of LI.

LI are cheap space fillers that, because they're fairly resistant to shooting, can be difficult for your opponent to displace. So my preference would be to run the pikes as only 1/4 HI, probably drop one pike unit, and use the points to take some additional LI. That would make for a more balanced list that still packs plenty of punch.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:47 pm    Post subject: Mongol

Terry Dix - Mongol
CinC Reg A/B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 155
Sub Reg A/B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 105
Sub Reg A/B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 105
4E Nobles Reg A/B HC L,B,Sh - 148
4E Nobles Reg A/B HC L,B,Sh - 148

4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82
4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82
4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82
4E Skirmishers Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 82

7E Turks Ir C LC 3E Jls,B,Sh 4E B - 99
7E Turks Ir C LC B - 81
6E Turks Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 91
2E Skir Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 46
2E Skir Reg B LC Jls,B,Sh/B - 46
2E Nobles Reg B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 76
2E Nobles Reg B HC/MC L,B,Sh - 76
6E Skri Reg B LC B - 94
1598
155 scouting

Terry is taking advantage of the rule that if he, as Mongol, doubles (or more) someone's scouting he can dice to pick up one or two terrain features.

He then sends a substantial flank march, with the option to send two (2 Subs) hoping to severely mess anyone not ready for that up.

Otherwise there's some skirmish/shoot/evade or dismount and receive capability here. Still, little to 'crack' an enemy line straight up...so punch is an issue.

Finally, this list is slightly illegal Wink...in that he has 20E of Turkish LC with no Turkish Sub (required if Turk LC exceeds 12E).

Frank
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Mongol

Frank Gilson wrote:
Terry Dix - Mongol


Terry is taking advantage of the rule that if he, as Mongol, doubles) someone's scouting he can dice to pick up one or two terrain features.

He then sends a substantial flank march, with the option to send two (2 Subs) hoping to severely mess anyone not ready for that up.

Otherwise there's some skirmish/shoot/evade or dismount and receive capability here. Still, little to 'crack' an enemy line straight up...so punch is an issue.

Finally, this list is slightly illegal Wink...in that he has 20E of Turkish LC with no Turkish Sub (required if Turk LC exceeds 12E).

Frank


Frank is correct. The list was written the day before as I wasn't sure I would play in the NCIT. I missed both the need of a Turkish SG and an element of Mongol guards. Neither is a huge matter to fix. The intent was always to remove terrain throw out a screen. Then pick a point to try and disorder and break. The army suits my preferred play style, of skirmish and counter punch. I didn't have dismounts, camels or Art (which can always buy incindiaries) all of which I could have used against Ewan and Matt. The list is very poor in its infantry options espcially in loose orders. You are basically wedded to 150 scouting points to get 2x scouting to pull terrain. Camels and proofing for 3 units plus Art only bring the list to 150 scouting. I'm unsure if I should pay for incindiaries but 2 shots seem reasonable.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Greg's Yuan

Greg Hauser – Yuan Dynasty

CinC 2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh/Reg C MC L,B + PA – 196
Sub 2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh /Reg C MC L,B + PA – 116
2E Reg A EHC L,B,Sh /Reg C MC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
2E Reg B HC L,B – 76
6E Reg C LC B – 82
6E Reg C LC B - 82
6E Reg C LC B - 82
2E Reg A/B LC B – 40
2E Reg A/B LC B - 40
6E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,B,PA/LTS,B,Sh – 110
6E Reg D (1C) MI LTS,B,PA/LTS,B,Sh - 110
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Artillery w/ 6 crew – 130
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26
2E Reg C LI Jls,Sh – 26

Here is Greg Hauser's Yuan list.

I see what Greg is trying to do, extending his philosophy of artillery to its ultimate extent, while skirmishing and hoping to shake something loose that lancers can charge.

However, this can be defused as the Stone Throwers have to shoot at nearest in arc, which could be skirmishers.

Even though Greg's LC fight 1.5 ranks, they don't have JLS, Shield and will generally not be able to be impetuous...so their ability to drive away enemy lights is not guaranteed.

I also hate C morale back ranks for high morale small units, especially generals!

I think here Greg should ditch one Stone Thrower unit, going with two should be enough...and make the CinC just a staff element so he can join one Stone Thrower to direct its fire (particularly if Greg ends up with a hill to put it on).

Fix up the morale, give a LC unit or two some JLS and perhaps front rank Sh...

The Korean foot are excellent.

Frank
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject:

I don't have much to add to Frank's commentary, but I will comment on a general trend that makes the Mongols important.

Current deployment rules really leave no time between setup and closing to combat. In other words, gone are the days of a bound or so of march moves in which one can attempt to correct for some deployment mistakes. Instead, troops are essentially going to operate and fight where they are deployed.

Overall this is a good thing, and has substantially sped up our game. But it does put a premium on good deployment, and by extension any advantage in deployment has amplified effect. This basically comes down to deploying as much of your army after as much of your opponent's army as possible. Things that garner an advantage in deployment:
* Having more commands than your opponent;
* Having more scouting points than your opponent;
* Having a flank march with a high probability of arriving in a timely manner.

The flank march point is a subtle one, but in effect a flank march is "deployed" after everything else. The counter to this has always been enough of a chance that a flank march won't show up at all.

So really only the Mongols get to check all three boxes here: they can put out a large number of commands. They will have more scouting points than almost anyone (but not more than massive irregular light cav armies like Huns). And they get to fiddle with flank marches in a way that makes them much more viable.

So while the Mongols lack bona fide shock troops, the deployment advantages are overwhelming, and being a fast and regular army, they get maximum opportunity to exploit those advantages. I still don't think this is enough to make the Mongols a top tier army, but they are certainly more worthy of consideration than they have been previously.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Rich's Huns

Rich Kroupa – Huns – 1602

CinC 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 150
Sub 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 100
Sub 2E Ir B Jls,B ½ Sh – 68
2E Ir D LI B ½ Sh – 29
2E Ir D LI B ½ Sh – 29
9E Franks Ir D (3 C) MI HTW,Sh – 109
9E Franks Ir D (3 C) MI HTW,Sh – 109
4E Camels Ir C MCM Jls,B,Sh – 97
4E Camels Ir C MCM Jls,B,Sh – 97
6E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 97
4E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 73
4E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 73
4E Skirmishers Ir C LC Jls,B ½ Sh - 73
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh - 85
2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh – 85

Ok, first off, I personally could never play this army Wink.

Hats off to Rich for running it and in this configuration.

The Frankish foot handle certain enemy foot problems that Huns would otherwise be unable to crack.

The dense camels can cause significant problems for enemy LC with disorder plus shooting. I don't see camel proofing on the Hun cavalry, so that's a bit of an issue as you'd like to operate some of your own LC next to your camels.

Frank
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