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Bookkeeping on the Tabletop (Casualty/Fatigue Markers)
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject: Bookkeeping on the Tabletop (Casualty/Fatigue Markers)

I hate crap on the table. I realize that there's an inevitable amount of "gaming gear" that is strewn around, dice, measuring devices, etc., But anybody whose played me over the years might note how I always have an extra chair at my table so I can keep most of my crap stowed away from what's supposed to be a visual display.

This blends over to how some people try to "go paperless" when it comes to the bookkeeping this game requires. It's a laudable goal since we seem to spend far too much time (meaning *any* time) questioning an opponent's fatigue point levels. The two tabletop ways that come to mind are Rich's little bead system and Dan's "old Risk blocks" system.

I don't like either because they detract from the "visual splendor" of the game. Plus, in Dan's case, I don't know what all the colors are supposed to mean. I think half the time he just picks a Risk block at random and tosses it out there. Razz

Or even my "reminder aids": white beads with black letters. I deliberately found some small ones so as to minimize the distraction.

So, I've wondered about alternatives. In my AWI rules set, we used pennies. Surprisingly, they worked well. They blended into the table, lord knows they're cheap, and were easy to handle. That game only required at most 5 pennies per unit. Warrior's a far different monster.

Five years ago I picked up these (unpainted) from a small outfit in Australia, Evil Gong Miniatures:

IMG_2043

IMG_2044

No bigger than a penny and the give you the numbers 1-4. Not bad and the display on the table is at least something in keeping with the game period. Still, given that we track higher numbers and I don't want to have several of these for each unit, I cast about for something else. That and the fact I'm not sure I could even order a crapload more of these.

What I found was this:

http://woolshedwargamer.com/2014/04/08/casualty-bases/comment-page-1/

Now this is cool! The "counter" only goes up to 12 but I figure I could augment those rare cases of something at 13-15 FPs with my little swords. It doesn't take into account that we track two sets of fatigue but again, I think I'll use my little swords for that. Plus, in most situations, once you're tired for shooting, there's not a lot of time (in the game) or things to track.

These only cost 60p. Not sure yet about shipping. I'm gonna order 30-40 of these and put casualty figures and flocking on em, maybe 10-15.

Here's a direct link to the company:

http://war-bases.co.uk/ACCESSORIES/GAMING-AIDS?product_id=944

Of course you have to get casualty figures and that's where it's all over the place. Depending on your analness, you might feel the need to have something appropriately historical for each army. Or a smattering of somewhat generic "ancient/medieval dead" that work in any period.

I know of the following sources for different casualties:

A&A Miniatures
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=57
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=14
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=130
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/view_product/?p=225
Alexandrian and Carthaginian packs good for any Hellenistic army. MIR wounded could work for a lot of armies. There's even a Sassanid wounded pack!

Wargames Foundry
http://wargamesfoundry.com
I can't get into the site as I type this so no direct links. But they make Viking, Ancient Egyptian, Greek Hoplite, Bronze Age, Polybian Roman and probably more. Just go to their site and poke around. Actually, they carry Aztec casualties!

Crusader
http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/prod.php?prod=369&casualties&page=1
http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/prod.php?prod=813&casualties&page=1
http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/prod.php?prod=139&casualties&page=1
One package consists of gladiators. Two packages have non-casualty figures. One package is a Later-ish Crusader knight horse and two knights. Quite good.

Old Glory
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SOD-16
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=ZGW-07
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=HCW-28
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TTW-14
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SVS-10
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CWG-19
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CWG-20
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=WOR-16
One gladiator pack. One Trojan War pack that's generic. One Polybian Roman pack, one Gaul pack. A late medieval pack plus Dark Age/Arab.

Curteys
http://curteysminiatures.co.uk/shop/arthurian/arthurian-early-saxon/arthurian-early-saxon-supplement-packs/early-saxon-casualties/
Early Saxon dead but sufficiently Dark Age generic enough to work for a lot of armies.

Warlord Games (Hail Caesar line)
http://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/gallic-celts/products/ancient-celts-celt-casualties
http://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/late-republican-romans/products/caesarian-roman-casualties
Celts, Marian Roman.

Newline Designs
http://newlinedesigns.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=410_429_432
That's a link to a specific search. If it doesn't work, search on
"newline designs miniatures casualties". The packs are Hellenistic but also includes EIR legionaries.

West Wind Productions
http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk
Can't get to their site so follow the link and poke around.

Perry (Crusades and Muslims)
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=2128
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_33_52&products_id=1787
Both packages are awesome with several figures that are fairly generic.

Gripping Beast
http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/search?q=Casualties
Emphasis on Dark Age but click on the various Teutonic casualty packs. Awesome.

Mirliton Miniatures
http://www.mirliton.it
Can't get to their site so follow the link and poke around. They have wounded horses and knights, possibly more

Essex
http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/products/f65
http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/products/f65a
http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/25mm-medieval-dead-wounded/products/f64
http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/25mm-medieval-dead-wounded/products/f64a
Photos of only two packs. All generic to be good for any period. They even have a package of dead spearmen and dead bowmen although they only show one photo for both.

Magister Miletum
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sca1-mounted-knight-dying.html
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sca2-man-at-arms-in-agony.html
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sca3-dazed-prostrate-man-at-arms.html
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sca4-dead-peasant.html
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sca5-dead-knight.html
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sho15-barded-horse-casualty.html
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/28mm/sho12-dying-barded-horse.html
They don't have any photos of the figures but assume from their number they're Arab/Medieval. Oh, the last link is of a "dying horse": it's face planting into the ground.

Irregular
htttp://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/25mmRanges/25mmPersonality.htm
Two dead horse types. They might have more figures in other lines but I couldn't find them easily.

1st Corps
http://www.1stcorps.co.uk/buy-online/c/1st-corps-figures/ancients/greeks/page/4/?product_tags[0]=66
Shown are Greek casualties and that includes horses.

Dixon
http://www.dixon-minis.com/shop/samurai-25mm/
Dixon only does Samurai.

Redoubt
http://www.redoubtenterprises.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=55b76a7f1a3c4470a7125fe90c69d96c
Mainly medieval.

You'll also find a model company, Ykreol, that has a line of 1/72 scale casualties. The problems are very poor sculpting and the fact the material is soft plastic, ie., the old Airfix toy soldier stuff from my youth.

scott

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Last edited by scott holder on Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:26 pm; edited 16 times in total
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject:

Those turnable bases look _great_.

OK, who can I throw money at to make me some pretty ones? Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject:

How many do you think you'll need? I'll at least order enough.

Next, any period-specific figures in mind or would you be satisfied with something fairly generic?

I ask because I can simply order enough of everything and then make your batch along with mine. You can reimburse me for material cost. Labor you can buy me booze or something.

scott

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject:

Really? Well, wow - thanks! I'll make sure that it's high-quality booze Smile.

I was thinking that 25 would be more than enough. 20 is probably fine - rarely have more units than that and some will not take fatigue.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject:

I would go in on this as well. I'd want about 25 of them. Happy to do my own painting and flocking.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:42 am    Post subject: casualty bases

Those do look pretty neat. I can see the 40 mm bases with casualties to show actual fatigue and then use the 30 mm bases to track shooting fatigue separately. What would be a good fig to mount on a shooting fatigue counter? Barrel of arrows?
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:08 am    Post subject:

You have me thinking.
I might jump in with you guys if you don't mind. I would do the painting.
Let me know how it progresses.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Shipping?

Has anyone ordered from them before? Is it like Old Glory where we should all order together to get a discount? I didn't see a US distributor. Any experience with "weight based shipping"?
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject:

There is no US distributor.

Slight digression: One thing I've discovered over the last several years is that all the really innovative stuff is being designed and made in the UK. For example, I just look at all the laser cut wood things available and wonder why none of that is done here. End slight digression.

I also don't see any "Old Glory" style of discount. Because of this and the fact that we're so scattered, it doesn't make sense to place one massive order. I offered to do that for Ewan since I also offered to paint figs, etc., My suggestion is that everybody else is on their own. Smile

That being said, I'm going to try and better document the figures that are available for this and put links in the original post. Everybody else interested is certainly free to share such links in this thread and I'll cut/paste them into the lead post.

Jamie, regarding a seperate gizmo depicting shooting fatigue, I was thinking/hoping that there would be some easily identifyable bowmen casualty/dead figures out there. I know Essex lists some but have no photos.

For mounted units, I'm going to look at generic dead horses. I know Crusader has a dead knight figure that would work fine as a generic medieval casualty figure.

Sheesh, I go from finishing up a Hybrid DBA project with nothing on my plate to a whole boatload of painting projects.

scott

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject:

I will order on my own. I think I also have some miscellaneous figures, Alexandrian era I believe, where the figures come with the heads not attached to the bodies. Just putting a severed head on a base might do nicely, and provide something that is period-neutral.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: casualty markers

Those are neat - I think I am going to Use the dick Hurchanick method - weighted coin with stick and beads
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:44 pm    Post subject:

An update:

I have the markers and they are slick. Because of painting LIRs for the Theme, I haven't had time to work on these but that's next. I've got some Gaul casualty figures on hand so those will be first. I should have those and legionaries by Hcon.

I fully expect everybody to ooooooh and aaaaaaahhhh so much that everybody will want to do this. Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:59 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for the post; this reminded me to finally order these. I ordered 20, which will cost me about $1 each with shipping. Not a bad deal. Hopefully they arrive before Historicon.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject:

My first casualty marker. Did a test one first.

[/url]



The figure is a Gaul I got as part of a free package of them from Black Tree Design after they took 4 months to send me 40 LIR legionaries.

These things rock. I've discovered a problem tho: while you don't need a crapload of these for any particular game, if you want to have a set for each army you own, you then need a crapload of em. Shocked Razz

I've got three more Gauls in the pipeline. They're not quite as generic as to be used for everything but will apply to a fair amount of my lead. I've got MIR legionaries (which will double fine as LIR) on order along with a mass of Sassanid stuff for Ewan. Will post more photos as I get em finished.

But, I'm beyond sold on these.

scott

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject:

The other three Gauls:





I've now learned that not all prone horses will fit on these particular markers. There will be overhang. Having said that, I'm working on making the horses myself. I have so much old Minifig lead that I can afford to make many mistakes.

I'm using a Dremel to cut/grind down one side of a horse so that it'll lay flat. Then I bend the legs and tail so it looks like they've dropped to ground level as well. I'll post that test marker next week.

This won't be an issue with horses doing face plants as the back end of the figure will be "up". All the Sassanid mounted I'm doing for Ewan will be that way and I'll most likely take a couple of old caprisoned Minifig horses and see if I can't convert them.

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