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Tepanecs? Or something else?
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:01 am    Post subject: Tepanecs? Or something else?

Figured I would start a new thread rather than hijack the NICT one any further. Over there, Mark Stone said:
Quote:

Quote:

Tepanec - Bill Low

CinC 4E Reg A LMI 1HCW,D,Sh (1E S instead of D) PA 151
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh 110
4 Knights Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh 110

4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh 110
4E Vet. Warriors Reg B (1A) LMI LTS,S,Sh 110

4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh 106
4E Warriors Reg C LMI 2HCT,S,Sh 106
4E Subject War. Reg C LMI 1HCW,Jls,Sh 90
4E Otomi Ir C LMI 2HCW,Jls/Jls,Sh 67

2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh 64
2E Otomi Ir A LMI 2HCT,Jls,Sh/1HCW,Jls,Sh 64

2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh 30
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26
2E Skirmishers Reg C LI S,Sh - 26


I'll keep this short, since much of what I think I've said before.

First off, I would never play a Meso American list. Ever. But if I had to play one, this would be the list.


My question is: is he right on that last sentence? If I am going to play MesoAm instead of Viking next year, is that the best option?

Several things come to mind. First is the main armament: I think it's clear that sling is probably the best weapon for the bulk of the line troops, but would one prefer to have a couple of units with bow? LTS is OK, but I had assumed as default that 2HCT was better - maybe backed by 1HCW? - and if that's correct, what list is best to permit it in maximum quantities? Third is Otomi: that IrrC unit is a liability, but as far as I know there's no list that avoids it - correct? And last of the initial thoughts is LI: I like the option to add 1HCW as a potent increase in fighting power, but is there any better option?

Hey, Bill! Why'd you pick this one?

Thoughts solicited. {And yes, if you want to suggest some new and improved way to play Viking, that's OK too.}[/quote]
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:56 pm    Post subject:

Incan has a better mix of armaments, but as I recall is not as uniformly high morale. And I think that's one of Bill's key advantages. While there are some C class LMI in there, they are few, and with Bill's careful placement it's very hard to find a unit you can break that is going to cause adjacent Cs to take a waver. Having to play against a list where you must assume every unit will pass wavers is very difficult.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject:

Tepanec offers the mass sling that is the best missile weapon you can get IMO. Tim Brown's meso-American had both dart and bow.

Tepanec also has the Otomi that Inca does not which allows for that punch or counterpunch that can break units on contact.

Todd

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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:56 pm    Post subject:

While I am musing this stuff: everyone takes 4E units of LMI, but is that correct? I think it's clear that the viable options are 2E, 4E, 6E - any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:49 am    Post subject:

Ewan McNay wrote:
While I am musing this stuff: everyone takes 4E units of LMI, but is that correct? I think it's clear that the viable options are 2E, 4E, 6E - any thoughts?


I think as a line troop type 2 element units are too small. I like 6 element units because they fit best with the ability to expand or contract by 2 elements. But 4 element units will hold more total frontage than 6 element units because of the higher number of gaps.

It's worth thinking through the 2 element option. We all dismiss that approach out of hand, but I don't know that there's more thought behind that than a gut reaction.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:55 am    Post subject: Meso Points

Note that 2HCT and LTS cannot be used in the woods...so at least one unit, perhaps two, should be woods capable...2HCW, 1HCW, JLS...those weapons.

Thus the Tepanec required Irr C LMI unit can take a woods role.

2E units are not line units, but you could contemplate the generals as such for staff moves and getting through gaps to hit enemy overlaps, etc.

6E units end up being expensive and leaving your army with too few units.

Be wary of gaps between your line units...then you can't add in support shooting as "prolonging the front".

Think about the lists that get temporary fortifications...as you take a defensive position anyway, but be aware of making too difficult a 'fort' to attack.

Frank


Last edited by Frank Gilson on Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject: disadvantages

The disadvantages of MesoAmerican lists are that you're pretty much outscouted and setting up in a defensive posture every game...and waiting to see what happens.

If that's absolutely not your playing style, don't play such an army.

There are also some troop type combinations that completely 'solve' some portion of your waiting line...and all you can do is skirmish and counter out of the way, not a pleasant position to be in.

Frank
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:53 am    Post subject:

Make sure you familiarize yourself with the circulating combatant rules. There's lots of tricksy stuff you can do there, which will appeal to your style of play (and which your opponents will hate, but rules are rules). Not applicable to all lists, but factor in the potential utility of circulating combatants before selecting a list.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:13 am    Post subject:

Outscouting is another factor that has become a much bigger deal w/ current deployment. That's actually a possible deal-breaker in terms of being able to win games. Hmm.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:12 am    Post subject:

Ewan McNay wrote:
Outscouting is another factor that has become a much bigger deal w/ current deployment. That's actually a possible deal-breaker in terms of being able to win games. Hmm.


It depends somewhat on the army. With 10 Independent States I was almost always outscouted, and it didn't bother me (or Derek, when he played the same army). I already had a front line that can fill table edge to table edge, and the handful of reserve troops could adjust their position on Bound 1. If anything current deployment rules make that a better army since you get 360p to deploy in instead of 240p.

But being able to play table edge to table edge is key. An army that is both holding a smaller frontage and being outscouted certainly faces challenges.

I think the other difference is that with 10 Independent States your line troops are not your shock troops, so they don't necessarily have to win, they just have to be able to endure for a few bounds against a wide range of threats. That they can do. And your shock troops in reserve are real. There is some arrow in that quiver that is a grave threat against any pinned down opponent.

With the Meso Americans, your shock troops aren't potent against all possible threats, and your line troops are playing a semi-shock troop role much of the time. That makes being outscouted more of a problem, because -- as Frank alludes to -- you really are conceding to your opponent the ability for him to tee up the one perfect matchup he wants.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:37 am    Post subject:

Mark Stone wrote:
With the Meso Americans, your shock troops aren't potent against all possible threats, and your line troops are playing a semi-shock troop role much of the time.


Exactly; and as Mark notes, the line is short to begin with. So being out-scouted can rapidly lead to being out-flanked also, as well as losing control over matchups: there are a bunch of challenges here. [It may be obvious, but one of those is that being confined to a 360p deployment area means that redeployment is difficult or impossible - there is no 'behind the lines' space. So an opponent has still a further advantage in terms of being able to dictate matchups.]
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Puzzle

As Meso-American (or similar), you pose a puzzle for your opponent to solve...and await their opening moves.

You then counter-strike.

If you don't like that style of play, don't play a Meso-American army.

Also, sometimes your A/B troops will roll 1s, and that's totally out of your hands.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject:

I'll weigh in here a little.

Being outscouted is a normal feel for the army and most people who play these consistently - Bill, Woyke, and myself - probably don't see this as a disadvantage as most of your troops are homogeneous anyway. As I am used to it I actually see it as a comfort and not a detriment with Tepanec.

Inca can allow for 6E units much better as they are cheaper (being C class) and can get some more "filler" troops of LMI B,Sh and such to cover more board (one of the weaknesses of Aztec/Tepanec vs. Inca).

It is certainly a counter-punch army for the most part. Sling is a very effective weapon that most people discount. This army should also win most shooting battles. It is certainly a "dance" army where you have to understand matchups and when to be or not to be in skirmish. Your opponent has to set up their attack well to keep the Meso armies out of a defensive line - Macedonians are the best at this as the pikes can absorb infinite amounts of shooting and there are enough elephants/companions to keep the Meso honest.

Ahhh - the 1's - They do tend to come in bunches and that is the death of any high morale army. Lost the NICT to Damour's Vikings as his pressure and my inability to roll a 2 or higher...

Todd

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:42 pm    Post subject: 'buster' unit

When making up lists these days, I try to include a 'Meso Buster' unit when I can, along with some lancers.

The 'buster' unit is an infantry unit that most Meso foot can't fight, so they need to counter/skirmish.

Once in skirmish, some lancers an cause wavers while the buster continues to move forward.

This also pushes back a hinge or flank portion of the Meso line, which can expose gaps and flanks.

A 'buster' unit could be something like 9E MI LTS,Sh with barbarian rules, or a Dark Ages shield wall, some medieval LTS or 2HCT with pavise. Here sling means that your counter back in skirmish still leaves you in charge range of the 160p lancers, whlie having to shoot at the 'buster' unit which can absorb the fire (along with nearby skirmishing lights).

An ideal circumstance, yes, but one the Meso American army doesn't have the best solution for.

Frank
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:38 pm    Post subject:

Inca is certainly another choice:

Inca - Dan Woyke

CinC 4E Reg A LMI 2HCT,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh 242
Sub 4E Reg A LMI 2HCT,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh 167

6E Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh 154
4E Reg C/D LMI HTW,Jls,S,Sh 102
4E Reg C/D LMI HTW,Jls,S,Sh 102

4 Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh 106
4 Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh 106
4 Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh 106

4E Reg C LMI HTW,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Reg C LMI HTW,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Reg C LMI HTW,S,Sh/Jls,S,Sh 90

4E Reg D (1C) LI Jls,D,Sh/D,Sh 40
4E Reg D (1C) LI Jls,D,Sh/D,Sh - 40
4E Reg D (1C) LI Jls,D,Sh/D,Sh - 40

6E Reg D (1C) LMI 2HCW,B,Sh/B 84
2x 6 elements of walls 40

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