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Early Bulgar 1200 points
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:59 pm    Post subject: Early Bulgar 1200 points

Early Bulgar somehow found a way into my heart about 25 years ago. It was 15mm Thistle and Rose figures that just jumped out and made me want to get it. The army, I know, is not very good. It has quite a few struggles overall, but the thought of fast moving lights and heavy cav lancers with bow was interesting as I was mostly an infantry army person.

I bought the army and painted it up (using the staining technique favored for a short time period to give shading and coverage). As a barbarian army it also gave it a dark, foreboding appearance. I thought that with some Slav foot terrain would also be negotiable for the army and away I went.

I've played it a few times as Bulgars, Slavs, Avar, Magyar etc... and the troops work well for most dark to medieval barbarian type infantry/cavalry to make it a truly worthwhile purchase. Certainly got my bang for the buck. So, here is just an army to toss out to keep up the discussion on the Forum that I so love to do. Feel free to critique/comment.


Early Bulgar
1207 points 76 scouting

CinC 2E Ir B HC L,B,Sh + PA (160)
Sub 4E Ir B HC L,B,Sh + P (154)
4E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh (145)
4E Nobles Ir B HC L,B,Sh (145)

6E Horse Archers Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B (85)
6E Horse Archers Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B (85)
6E Horse Archers Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B (85)

12E Slav Ir C LMI 1/3 2HCW,Sh 2/3 Jls,Sh (133)
12E Slav Ir C LMI 1/3 2HCW,Sh 2/3 Jls,Sh (133)

8E Slav Archers Ir D LI B (41)
8E Slav Archers Ir D LI B (41)

At 1600 points you can certainly get 2 more LC units moving your scouting to over 100 and get another 4E unit of HC if you take away 2 elements of LI or so to balance the points.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject:

Mark Stone had interest in Post Mongol Russian some years ago...cost efficient lancers, LC, and a little infantry.

Ottoman Turk can be run similarly.
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject:

What's the rationale behind the 4E Noble units?
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Terry D
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:48 am    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:
What's the rationale behind the 4E Noble units?


Some level of durability and the extra shooting against a 2 el unit is nice. HC is fragile in the face of bow fire. The cost savings vs 2 el units has to be a consideration
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:17 am    Post subject: Durability

Ottoman Turk can get you:
HC/MC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B/B

Whether a 3E column or a 6E block this is efficient in shooting and H-T-H.

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:46 pm    Post subject:

I do have a fondness for Post Mongol Russian. I run either 18 figure cav units (typically in a 2 wide, 3 deep formation) or 6 figure cav units. The 18 figure units are shooting blocks, and the 6 figure units are for attacking.

To do this you really need the points efficiency of not having to have all ranks with Sh, HC, and extra weapons. In other words you ideally want your 18 figure units to be:
* 2 ranks Irr B HC L,B,Sh
* 2 ranks Irr C MC L,B
* 2 ranks Irr C MC B

Then you want your 6 figure units as:
* 1 stand Irr B HC L,B,Sh; 1 stand Irr B HC L,B

There are only a few lists where you can get that degree of efficiency, but I like the 6 figure - 18 figure mix better than using 12 figure units.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:01 am    Post subject:

I like this.
I run a Golden Horde army(really the leftovers from Matt's Timurid army)
Interested in the 18fig units.
Let's see.
Ed the Rash
PS Never realized that the Bulgar was such a cav army.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject:

I agree that the Post Mongol Russian list is WAY more optimal - we all have our irrational loves.... Scott and his Burgundians Shocked Ed and his Andalusians, etc... Cool

I also loved the figures from Thistle and Rose back in the day - rumor has it they are coming back - says Jamie Fish.

Post Mongol also gives some bowmen to aid in the shooting war. Mark - would love to see a 1200 and 1600 point list if you are bored/interested.

Todd

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scott holder
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:14 pm    Post subject:

Okay, obviously I knew about 2E HC unit optimization. Shocked
Interesting approach with the 6E units as shooting blocks. As Ed indicated, that gives me something to ponder down the line as I work out what I might use for the Teut theme.

But back to Todd's approach, what's the rationale behind the 4E HC units? They fall between the 2E and 6E approach.

scott

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:47 am    Post subject:

I, as Mark Stone does, view the 4E unit of HC as a compromise. You want to be big enough to resist damage and put out some decent local shooting...but not so big you cost too much. 6E of entirely HC L,B,Sh is too pricey.

4E is also the minimum to dismount with an actually useful unit (2E HI)...of course cav that doesn't dismount 1-for-1 is unlikely to dismount...so this isn't really a reason to use 4E.

So, I'd run 6E efficient shooting platform cav units that can also charge sometimes, along with a few 2E (particularly generals) units that fit in various spaces better.

4E math changes when you are talking about Mongols (or Lombards) who do dismount 1-for-1, where you get a fairly solid unit as mounted or foot that don't cost an outrageous amount (130 for 4E Reg C HC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B).

So...with Mongols I'd take generals as 2E (staff moves, mostly) and other loose cav as 4E.

Frank
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:46 am    Post subject: Actual lists

Let me contrast two 1200 points lance/bow lists.

Early Ottoman Turk
CinC PA Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh 201 (ouch)
Sub P Reg B EHC/HC L,B,Sh 129
6E Irr C(1 A) LC JLS,Sh 101
6E Irr C(1 A) LC JLS,Sh 101
6E Irr D LI B 37
6E Irr D LI B 37
6E Irr D(1 C) HC/MC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B/B 118
6E Irr D(1 C) HC/MC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B/B 118
6E Irr D(1 C) HC/MC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B/B 118
6E Irr D(1 C) HC/MC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B/B 118
6E Irr D(1 C) HC/MC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B/B 118
1196, 11 units, 2 cmds, 76 scouting

Mongol
CinC PA Reg A EHC/HC L,B,Sh 204 (ouch again)
Sub P Reg A/B EHC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B 119
2E Reg B LC JLS,B 46
2E Reg B LC JLS,B 46
2E Reg B LC JLS,B 46
6E Reg C LC B 82
4E Reg C LC JLS,B/B 66
4E Reg C LC JLS,B/B 66
4E Reg C HC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B 130
4E Reg C HC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B 130
4E Reg C HC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B 130
4E Reg C HC/MC L,B,Sh/L,B 130
1195, 12 units, 2 cmds, 100 scouting

More volume of figures in the Early Ottoman army and mounted dense shooting...plus a little LI for the odd terrain feature.

Mongol army is much more maneuverable at all regular, and may be able to pick up some terrain features as well as dismount when called for.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Post Mongol also gives some bowmen to aid in the shooting war. Mark - would love to see a 1200 and 1600 point list if you are bored/interested. Todd


I'll second that request. Per above, I'm still casting about for some approach to the Teut theme. I don't have a complete army of anything for it but am thinking the Mongol component of my Yuan list, still too small, might be a start. Plus the idea of these 6E mounted shooting blocks is intriguing.

scott

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:13 am    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:
Todd Kaeser wrote:
Post Mongol also gives some bowmen to aid in the shooting war. Mark - would love to see a 1200 and 1600 point list if you are bored/interested. Todd


I'll second that request. Per above, I'm still casting about for some approach to the Teut theme. I don't have a complete army of anything for it but am thinking the Mongol component of my Yuan list, still too small, might be a start. Plus the idea of these 6E mounted shooting blocks is intriguing.

scott


Ok, the idea here is to use density of shooting to do harm to your opponent, and to use the mobility from most of your shooting being mounted to stay out of harm's way. Yes, your own loose order cav is highly vulnerable to return fire, but you can be clever about intermixing foot and mounted units, and utilizing the fact that mounted moves after foot to try and set it up so that your mounted is not your opponent's highest shooting priority.

On 1600 points you can do some gimmicky things with the bombards and the wagon laager (and the close order bowmen). Note that on 1600 points you get something like 220 figures of shooting as well as 126 scouting points. That'll give your opponent something to think about.

Not a killer list by any stretch of the imagination, but a ton of fun to play and for me it has great historical charm.

1600 points:
Post Mongol Russian
CinC, PA w/Irr B HC L,B elements: 1
Dvor Irr B HC L,B elements: 1

Sub, P w/Irr B HC L,B elements: 1
Dvor Irr B HC L,B elements: 1

Dvor Irr B HC L,B elements: 2

Lesser Boyars Irr C HC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC B elements: 2

Lesser Boyars Irr C HC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC B elements: 2

Lesser Boyars Irr C HC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC L,B elements: 2

Retainers Irr C LC B elements: 8

Retainers Irr C LC B elements: 8

Militia Bowmen Irr C MI B,Sh elements: 6

Militia Bowmen Irr C MI B,Sh elements: 6

Peasants Irr D LI B,Sh elements: 8

Wagon Laager, 6 elems 1

Bombards Reg C crew of 4 elements: 2

Cossack Infantry Irr C LI B,Sh elements: 8

Cossack Cavalry Irr B LC JLS,B,Sh elements: 4

Cossack Cavalry Irr B LC JLS,B,Sh elements: 4

Tatars Reg C LC JLS,B elements: 4

Tatars Reg C LC JLS,B elements: 4

POINTS 1600
SCOUTING 124


1200 Points:
Post Mongol Russian
CinC, PA w/Irr B HC L,B elements: 1
Dvor Irr B HC L,B elements: 1

Sub, P w/Irr B HC L,B elements: 1
Dvor Irr B HC L,B elements: 1


Lesser Boyars Irr C HC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC B elements: 2

Lesser Boyars Irr C HC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC L,B elements: 2
Lesser Boyars Irr C MC B elements: 2

Retainers Irr C LC B elements: 6

Retainers Irr C LC B elements: 6

Militia Bowmen Irr C MI B,Sh elements: 9

Peasants Irr D LI B,Sh elements: 8

Cossack Infantry Irr C LI B,Sh elements: 8

Cossack Cavalry Irr B LC JLS,B,Sh elements: 8

Tatars Reg C LC JLS,B elements: 4

Tatars Reg C LC JLS,B elements: 4

TOTAL 1202
SCOUTING 108
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject:

Thanks!

Very interesting. Lemme get one thing straight: you're not giving shields to the front rank of all those Dvor and Lesser Boyar units.

At first glance I was thinking the laager and bombards aren't a good match for everything else but with the likelihood of having a massive deployment area, those can deploy relatively far forward and the possibilities are very intriguing.

Again, doesn't need to be killer. For me this is all about the Theme.

scott

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:
Thanks!

Very interesting. Lemme get one thing straight: you're not giving shields to the front rank of all those Dvor and Lesser Boyar units.



I would love to give shields to all the front ranks of those units. But shields are an all or none option (a change from past incarnations of the list). I would also love to mix the Dvor with the Boyars, but that is not a mix option that permitted (also a change from past incarnations of the list). So within the allowable configurations, this is the best approach.

The lack of shields isn't terrible. You want to be shooting enemy mounted more than you want to be charging them, so shields don't matter as much in that context. And you only want to be charging foot in reaction to shooting success on your part, and you'll count shielded against foot the first bound anyway. So I can live with that. I dearly wish the Dvor and Boyar could mix, though. Being front rank Irr B throughout would help.

I don't question the historical accuracy of the list, my wishful thinking is strictly from a game mechanics perspective. And given that it's a list that would only be played for historical interest, I'm not that concerned about small optimizations. The list is colorful, and has interesting available tactics that are fun to play. It's a great list for what it's trying to be.
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