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MesoAmericans

 
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: MesoAmericans

Todd has been sharing some pictures here and there of his recently painted Tepanec army.

Various folks, including myself, have used these armies at events. You can usually count on one each time.

What's attractive about them? What are the options? Flaws? I think this discussion a useful one.

I'll start it off with my perspective.

Collectively MesoAmerican armies (and the handful of other lists that can be run in a similar way) have solid morale and a lot of shooting.

They can be taken in a manner that resists mounted charges with said shooting, copious LTS and circulating combatants rules.

Even in situations against infantry that would defeat them, MesoAmerican troops can reliably counter back, skirmish and evade.

The choices have typically been between Tepanec and Inca, both of whom use Sling which fires shielded.

Tepanec get somewhat higher morale and circulating combatants while Inca get access to rear zone Stone Walls and HTW,JLS combo.

I will let the experts continue this. Let's see some info from them (Todd, Dan) about concrete situations and how they handled them.
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:40 am    Post subject: Inca, and those other lesser armies in the western hemispher

I'm cheerfully biased as I build Inca but the other New World armies never really attracted my interest.

Rear zone stone walls - Too passive, who wants to wait around in the rear to attack someone
Light infantry - Decent light infantry is important, you need to buy about 15 scouting points worth in whatever flavors fit your play style. Inca has lots of RC LI S Sh which a good choice always.
HTW. JLS - These are the high melee shock troops of most Inca lists, upgrade to RC as much as possible and shield them with LTS, S units as needed
2HCT - Buy one unit of this just so you can field the fancy halberd armed figs but otherwise a tricky unit to use. Going shieldless as LMI on the second bound hurts.
HTW or 2HCW - I usually stay away from this option and favor the straight LTS units

CinC - Often has unusual weapon choices which serves the useful purpose of restraining one from putting the CinC in combat. RA LMI D Sh is not a melee unit.

Post Conquest Epilogue period - RB HK L Sh, LHI 1HCW HG SH, MI P Sh, the only thing funny about this period is the CinC. IB/IC HC JLS Sh to represent the newly mounted Inca CinC is a reasonably choice from a list design, but doesn't work well on the table and perhaps isn't a good choice for troops being trained by conquistadors.

Put the light infantry in the terrain, protect any RC or RD LMI, and toss the RB and RA LMI LTS S Sh units out in the open. Take the waiver and just shrug if you roll a one.

Lack of circulating combatant rule, I never miss that Inca doesn't get the silly rule.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Rear Walls

2 walls in the rear go a long way to preventing flank marches. Very cheap insurance when you don't have cavalry.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Walls

Historian wrote:
2 walls in the rear go a long way to preventing flank marches. Very cheap insurance when you don't have cavalry.


This is a very good point...and part of what I used the Stone Walls for in my Open victory with the 'theme' version of Post-Conquest Inca (not legal for NCT use).

Inca LI and LMI can just 'walk over' the walls if opposed by nothing or only enemy lights...which is frequently what happened.

Those rear zone Stone Walls also serve, with terrain already on the table, as a frontage shortener.

Some opposing armies have nothing that can charge a Stone Wall that has just LI JLS,Sh behind it, also...so you don't necessarily need to dedicate a LMI unit for that purpose.


Last edited by Frank Gilson on Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Woyke
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Walls Walls and more Walls

Gang,

It is still refreshing to see how people think so differently in building armies.
Jamie is also a very successful Inca player and his approach is also strong.

My take on the Walls (which I only started using a little while ago) with Inca is purely a funnel approach to combat, again shorting the board and a lot of times protecting a flank.

Cav can't pass over them.....so Cav can't push your flanks and you can leave a small unit or 2...to hold up a flank.

Over all I find them very useful for a lot of armies

DW
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject:

Well being a very frightened player. I LOVE walls.
I can hid my armies behind them. I am a passive player.
Why did I build a camp of Troy for the Trojan army.?????
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject:

Ok – at Frank’s request I will post my thoughts from the Tepanec/Aztec point of view.

This is going to be a long one so hold on I guess….

I am going to address a few points that Frank has brought up and try to back it up with some data as well. Frank has discussed that the Meso’s weakness(es) stem from the inability to drive off lights so that 1/3 of your army can be hit by superior forces at will. Due to this there is a greater likelihood that there will be many 1-1 or 1-0 draws due to the inability of the Meso to close to combat. There is also a feeling amongst some that the Meso’s lack of cavalry is a larger detriment then I believe it to be so. That being said I feel we all have armies that fit our personality and temperament. I have tried to run many a different type of army without any real success even though others are very successful with it. I think that Meso type armies are also in that area. Many have tried to figure out the puzzle of running it successfully and have grown frustrated with how to do so. To each is their own I guess, but I’ll tell my story and thoughts as they stretch back as far as 1987….

I started playing in 1986 with Asiatic Early Successor (1986 Cold Wars – Harrisburg) and enjoyed the army. Painted it in 15mm at 1250 points for 6th edition. I remember playing a fun game vs. Adam Weitz in his dad’s basement (the Nirvana of gaming before Bill Low became the new and improved Nirvana of gaming). I remember Adam’s army distinctly vs. my Macedonians. Aztec in 6th was not very good being Jls,D,Sh or Jls,S,Sh but it had an exotic appeal to me that was my siren’s song. I was hooked. By 1987 I was off of Pike and onto Aztec and 7th edition came out improving the army IMO. Needless to say I took my fair share of lumps with it. I was routinely thrashed by Curt Wright’s Sicilian H army and Teutonic Knighs were the army I also dreaded to see. I stuck to it – even playing in a tournament in 1988 that allowed Aztec (and Swiss) to charge impetuously….. During this time I either lost or found myself in the draws that Frank mentions. I tried to fight defensively – often seeing my battles looking like an inverted U with a defensive perimeter. I was able to hold on, but couldn’t seem to win regularly. Through A LOT of trial and error and some inspiration from Rick Gonzales where I saw that he was attacking aggressively on the flanks and I often saw his army surrounding opponents – probably to take prisoners 

I started to change my tactics and no longer relied on the defensive posture. The first step was to keep my lines either straight (allowing overlapping fire) or trying to create angles allowing overlapping fire. Shooting is certainly a key with an army where everyone has a missile weapon. While it took me many years to work through this – and a few relapses of defensive posture I started to figure out the army – I did learn how to be more aggressive with it with better results. I looked back at all the battles I’ve fought with Aztec/Tepanec – when I was just starting out at 15 I kept a record (decent for the most part) and have continued to do so through the ages. I wanted to see how many low scoring draws I have had to see if Frank’s points were accurate with me and here are my findings.

1990-2003 – Aztec. Often 2 lists were allowed in tournaments, some up to 6 lists early on. Often 1500 or later 1600 points. Aztec was an army that was all Reg B or higher and the main troops were armed with Jls,D,Sh (chosen when facing an elephant army) or Jls,S,Sh vs everyone else. Even the LI was Reg B LI Jls,Sh and very difficult to dislodge and could also be aggressive with it. The army had a unit of Ir A Priests which struggled being just 2HCW,D,Sh but were mandatory purchases. There was also an Apprentice unit that was Reg B LMI Jls,Sh. I believe the Knights had to be Jls,D,Sh as well and were often not used in large numbers being all Reg A and expensive (122 points a unit).

Starting in 1990 I will give army opponent and the scores of the battles. If a draw occurred I will give points if written down. My score will always be first either way in victory or defeat. Heading down the list will bring the reader to 2003. Some of these were also Mini (1200 points)

15mm
Gallic 3-4
Alex Imperial 5-2
Medieval Spanish 3-5
Norman 1-4
Hsing Nu 5-2
Marian Roman 3-3 (507-440)
Inca 2-5
Pyrrhic 5-1
Sassanid Persian 5-0
Lt. Carthiginian 2-4
Russ 5-0
Khazar 3-3 (670-605)
Lt. Roman 5-2
Saka (Kushan) 5-1
Sultante of Delhi 5-0
Alex Imperial 5-1
Japanese 5-0
E. Ottoman 5-1
E. Crusader 2-5

25mm
Nik. Byzantine 5-2
Rajput 5-3
Alex Conquest 2-4
Viking 3-4

15mm
Spanish 5-1
Lt. Roman 2-2 (318-309)
Mongol 5-0

25mm
Yuan Dynasty 2-5
Khmer 5-1
Sultanate of Delhi 5-3
Khmer 4-3

15mm
Medieval Spanish 4-3
Tibetan 5-2
Lt. Carthaginian 5-1
Ghaznavid 5-1
Sarmation 5-2
Magyar 5-1

25mm
Midianite 5-1
Seleucid 3-5
Vijayanagara Indian 5-2

15mm
Nik Byzantine 5-1
Wallachian 3-4
Mac. Jewish 3-3 (590-502)

I took a few years off from Aztec and tried to figure out Knights of St. John (still working on that one btw). Since then Aztec and the remainder of the Meso lists have undergone a rewrite. Since I wanted an army with sling as the primary missile weapon (due to reach and hitting power vs. heavier cavalry) I went with Bill’s suggestion of Tepanec. I even repainted my 15mm army (selling off the old one) and went back at it in 2007. I haven’t played it as often as I have as I’ve painted KoSJ and Abyssinian, but I borrowed Bill’s lead and finally have my own (with a fun camp as well).

2007-2016 – from oldest to the most recent tournament at Council of 5 Nations

15mm
Lt. Hungarian 5-1
Neo-Assyrian 4-2
E. Polish 5-2

25mm
Khmer 5-2
Spanish 1-5
Han Chinese 5-3
Japanese 0-5
Med. Spanish 5-2

15mm
Nik Byzantine 4-1
Lt. Hoplite 5-2
Ptomaic 5-1

25mm
Lt. Carthaginian 2-5
Seleucid 2-5
Lt. Roman 5-1
Bithynian 5-2
Arab Conquest 1-5

15mm
Bithynian 5-2
Ghaznavid 5-1
Romano-British 5-2

25mm
Neo-Assyrian 5-1
Mongol 2-5
Hunnic 5-2
Seleucid 5-2
Aztec 0-5
100 YW English 5 -2

I included both 15mm and 25mm to show that the army can be played on a variety of fields – the 15mm field is a lot larger than the 25mm field and the argument could be for more draws. I haven’t found that to be the case.

The army has changed a lot over the years. Now being mostly LTS,S,Sh and having varying morale (some C and some D LI as well) it is certainly a more challenging army. That being said the exchanging ranks in combat make up for the morale. The army still relies on missile power BUT in order to win close combat has to occur. I put down the opponents and scores to show that this is not an army (at least not the way I play it) that has a lot of low scoring draws. I feel that I can push lights out of the way quickly and get to the meat of armies on my terms most of the time. It is certainly a react army (most of the time) and having played it as often as I have has allowed me to know the ins and outs of the army. The LI is not nearly as good as it was in the old list, but is serviceable.
I play the army because I love the feel of it and love how it looks and plays on the table. With missile armies the amount of dice thrown help get those occasional +2 rolls that will begin the fatal crack in the other army.

The army also has a few Irreg A and Irreg C punch units that help in times of need. They saved my bacon in 1995 for sure and are a great threat to elephants and sometime an equalizer to other barbarian foot armies. I find that I often don’t need them if I get the shots but they really come in handy when things are close. Being in 2E units then can fit through gaps and can also be great counter-punching units in flanks.

I am sure that many look at the list and don’t feel the same as I do. I share those thoughts when I see other lists – they look fun per se, but I don’ know if I have the temperament or ability to run them without a lot of practice. That is one thing I don’t lack from this army is lack of battle experience.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject:

Data!

The match results Todd posts are the key here...I actually see few draws.

That's a testament to Todd's long experience with the army type and his aggressive play.

I'd love to hear from Woyke on Inca...and perhaps someone can coax Bill Low out on his Tepanec experiences.

Frank
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:16 pm    Post subject:

Frank,

I know you would love the data! Scary is I can actually remember most of the battles on the list.

Missile weapons are obviously powerful as so many armies use them in a variety of forms. I just like the loose foot and sling combo. Maybe I will build that Christian Nubian army Wink

Todd

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:17 am    Post subject:

Truly a dizzying intellect.
WOW!!!!
In the words of Darth Vader.."Impressive..... Impressive"
However, not withstanding this impressive data and analysis, I must add that what Todd also mentioned.
The player who is playing the army in my opinion (caution alert) probably the most significant factor whether an army is great or not. I have played over the years some "killer armies" and they sure weren't killer for me.
Since we are going back to memory lane, I remember WAY BACK when LIR were considered "Killer army". I was at HCon and DannyW was there and after one round when I lost. He told me to tweak my Romans to LIR. I did and lost worse than before.
However, this data is VERY important especially since the player has been a constant factor.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:21 pm    Post subject:

Ed Kollmer wrote:
Truly a dizzying intellect.
WOW!!!!
In the words of Darth Vader.."Impressive..... Impressive"
However, not withstanding this impressive data and analysis, I must add that what Todd also mentioned.
The player who is playing the army in my opinion (caution alert) probably the most significant factor whether an army is great or not. I have played over the years some "killer armies" and they sure weren't killer for me.
Since we are going back to memory lane, I remember WAY BACK when LIR were considered "Killer army". I was at HCon and DannyW was there and after one round when I lost. He told me to tweak my Romans to LIR. I did and lost worse than before.
However, this data is VERY important especially since the player has been a constant factor.
Ed the Rash


Ed is correct that each of us is a very important factor in how an army plays out. We make the choice of what list to use and what troops to take from that list and then how we set up and how our units move!

I'm not much of a pike player myself...and I tend to play more cautiously than I should under some circumstances, so a MesoAmerican army is less my 'thing' than Bill or Todd or even Ewan.

I do tend to like shooting people up a lot...though...

Frank
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject:

I'm with Frank!

Like to shootem up!!!
Getting back into Byz.
lots of bows......
Getting away from the Skutatoi and SHC. Going with more LC and bow guys.
See if I can beat those pesky Hungarians.
Making 9El LC unit of Pechnegs. See if I can use the Todd effect.
EK
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