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Hundred Years War English

 
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Hundred Years War English

The Hundred Years War English has been a list well used by various people over the years.

There are various considerations when using the list.

What time period?
Most folks go with Late to have the best 'options' regarding 2HCW, stakes, the LC unit, etc...but Early can work.

How many knights units?
On 1600 points you could run 3 knight units...or 5...or 10! The SHK/HK units are cost effective, if needing a general to go impetuous.

How many Longbowmen?
Well, the more knights you have the fewer LB...you could have all 36 elements, or the minimum.

How to upgrade the Longbowmen?
LHI? Reg B? 2HCW? Shield? Stakes? All?
Dave Stier uses Reg C LMI 2HCW,LB/LB.
I find that if you take Stakes, you need Shields AND 2HCW (making the units a bit more expensive)...or your combats don't work out (or you can't place stakes as someone will shoot your shieldless self to pieces).

How many lights?
None is possible...or some LI...in Late period the 4E of LC give some scouting. Do you care about being outscouted?

Do you play any Brigans?
They offer some flexible options...including HI 2HCT,Pa backed by MI JLS.

Unlike some lists you don't exhaust your options on HYWE even on 2000 points.

Let's see some debate!

Frank
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Frank - I will enter the fray.

I have run 100YW a few times in opens and NICT.

I believe I had 5 knight units (2 being Ir B French and all SHK) with the English being SHK/HK mixes to save points.

I love the shooting aspect of the army and took about 8 units of 4E LMI with LB and 1/2 sh. I found the 2HCW to be too "tempting" to get into combat which resulted in a disaster. Stakes are also important to have as well. I liked them as C grade overall.

I took as many lights as the remainder allowed - with LI being more important - the welsh Reg D LI B in a few 2E units and the LI Jls,Sh to hold/delay terrain.

One could also try (as I have) a few units of 6E LB 1/2sh and a few 2E units of LHI LB 2HCW for combat when needed.

I have run Early Burgudian - which is similar.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject:

5 Knight units, 2 of which are the Irr B SHK, seems fairly typical and I have run that myself.

2HCW on the Longbowmen is not to initiate combats, in my experience, but to 'clean up' when an opponent is recoiling disordered from knights OR has been disordered by the LB shooting. Thus the CinC (you) should retain 'discipline' in this matter.

Some folks have used 6E LMI LB and 2E LHI LB...I'm reluctant to do that given the Reg C nature of the LHI (unless you go with the Prince of Wales/King and Reg B upgrade).

I do like to experiment with the Brigans to have some sturdy infantry, but that tends to cut into either knights or LB or both.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject:

My inclination would be to run some 24 figure units that are LMI LB,Sh/LB and some 16 figure units that are LHI 2HCW (no shields) in the front. I use 24 figure shooting units a lot (when they're regulars), and I love the flexibility you get from starting the game in column and being able to move forward and fan out to either side.

I don't think stakes are worth it. They're of no help against elephants, and LB is plenty deadly against cavalry as it is. Yes, the LB are vulnerable to cav if you fail a waver or roll down big in a shooting roll, but cav, knights especially, are so much more expensive that I actually want to tempt my opponent to come after me with his cav. I'll take the cost-benefit ratio on that points investment any time.

The LHI are very solid in a support role. They can take some shooting even without shields, and they're great in combat against tired and/or disordered foes that have been set up either by your shooting or your knights. The key, which Frank has figured out and I confess I overlooked for years, is that victorious regulars are not required to follow up.

What most people do: charge with 2HCW, win, follow up, gaining a +1 for following up next bound but becoming shieldless in the process (and forgoing any counter-retire possibilities by continuing in combat).

What people should do: charge with 2HCW, win, and rally. Then you can charge again if you like, gaining a +1 for charging but also counting shielded, and you can also opt to counter or retire if the situation warrants.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Thanks, Mark...that's also useful info.

to Stake or not to Stake...I sometimes use some stakes, but not for all LB units...only for those that I feel may have to act as 'terrain' somewhere.

In that case they also need 2HCW AND Shield...LHI would be useful too, but you see how expensive this gets.

Relying instead on existing terrain, supplemented if necessary by forward Ditch (you can get up to two six element segments forward zone) is cheaper and generally better than stakes. The longbowmen can also walk across the Ditch if opposed only by lights or something else they can shoot up and beat.

6E Reg C LMI LB,Sh/LB (perhaps downgrade some to D morale) are 94 pts
4E Reg C LHI 2HCW,LB/LB are 98 pts

Those are affordable costs...perhaps three pairs of these at 576 points.

Frank
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject:

In fact:
CinC w/PA Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 203
Sub similar 133
2E Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 103
2E Irr B SHK L,Sh 133
2E Irr B SHK L,Sh 133
6E Reg C LMI LB,Sh/LB 94
6E Reg C LMI LB,Sh/LB 94
6E Reg C LMI LB,Sh/LB 94
4E Reg C LHI 2HCW,LB/LB 98
4E Reg C LHI 2HCW,LB/LB 98
4E Reg C LHI 2HCW,LB/LB 98
2E Reg D LI LB 18
2E Reg D LI LB 18
4E Irr C LC JLS,Sh 73
8E Irr C LI S,Sh/B 65
This is 1455...and 15 units.

I would add a Brigan unit as follows:
9E Irr C HI(2) LTS,Pa/MI(7) LTS at 121 pts for 1576 on 16 units.

You've then got 24 points for a little of this or that (morale on the Reg D LI LB, a Ditch, whatnot).

Frank
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Matt Kollmer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject:

So...I took a different route....Last Historicon I ran the 100YWE.

I had 5 units of LB with everything including front rank LHI upgrades.
I ran 6 units or Knights.....varying armor...but mostly SHK fronts.
I find armies hard to run with no LI. I used Kerns (JLS and S) and Welsh LB

My goal was to have all units that could fight if necessary....and I do like the Stakes, but admit that they are somewhat a "just in case" purchase which means they can be a waste. for the most part they helped in my games, Chariots cant cross them which came in somewhat helpful against Mark Stones' Rush Hour Chinese (22 of them Shocked ) although I did misplay that game which I am very commonly prone to do.

Overall I really like this army, but it is super fiddly. I tried, often unsuccessfully, to shoot up the enemy and charge with the Knights, then follow up with the 2HCW LBmen. It can be tough also, as you don't have much frontage at all, to concentrate an attack without being completely outflanked.....I often hoped to hold an entire flank a unit of LB, some LI and a unit of LC.

never used Brigans, have been considering 6E units of just LB with LHI follow up units.....the list I used in the NICT wasn't ideal
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject:

Matt:

This statement wins the thread:

Quote:
Mark Stones' Rush Hour Chinese


Agree that this army is quite fiddly. You need practice, ie, regular playing with it to get the hang of running it.

scott

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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject:

If memory serves me correctly Frank - I remember a tournament where you ran 8 knight units with 100YW and minimal LB.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
If memory serves me correctly Frank - I remember a tournament where you ran 8 knight units with 100YW and minimal LB.

Todd


It was actually 10 units of knights...hah...as follows:
CinC Reg B SHK/HK 203
Sub similar 133
Sub similar 133
four units of 2E Irr B SHK L,Sh 532
three units of 2E Reg B SHK/HK 309
That's ten knight units on 1310 points.
two units of 2E Reg D LI LB 36
four units of 2E Reg C LMI LB,Sh 168
up to 1514 now...
probably the LC unit 4E Irr C LC JLS,Sh at 73 for 1587 on 17 units.

I don't think that necessarily works these days...but hey...

I recall having to dismount knights and charge into the Brush one game, my victory only really coming because my opponent's flank march (a command) never arrived.

Frank
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Matt Kollmer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject:

that's a crazy list Frank! you probably still slimed a win out of someone.....like me!
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Very Sean Scott, Italian Condotta-like: how few figures can one use? Smile
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject:

Frank - I've seen you (and Dave) use the Brigans. Why? As an anchor of one end of a narrow frontage? Seems as though you're providing a target that can neither escape nor fight that well.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: bunker buster

The Brigans get barbarian rules.

As a 9E unit, 2E wide HI LTS,Pa, rest MI LTS, they can charge and fight with 22 figures...the army standard can keep them eager should they need that (some cases charging or counter charging impetuously is important).

There's a matchup where you want a unit like that...pretty much any MesoAmerican foe...who almost certainly has to skirmish in front of the Brigans, whose Pavise renders them largely immune to shooting...so the knights can then get freebie wavers on skirmishing LMI in the open...perhaps rolling long to catch them.

If you can afford a 'little more' HI and Pavise (one more element) then the unit can operate 3 wide and still fight with some 3rd rank figures...while holding a little more frontage and counting as a few more guys for CPF calculation.

HYWE can also take Ditch in the forward zone...and so some combination of Brigans in a gap, LB behind ditch, LI in terrain with knights as the reserve can be an option against a swarming table side-to-side covering foe, particularly one that outscouts you.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: also...Brigans

Finally, what will it cost your opponent to kill your Brigan unit? ...and what would your response be able to be? You may choose to 'pay' the Brigans in order to exact a follow up greater cost from the enemy.

Frank
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