Warrior Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
 
  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups AlbumAlbum   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Early Byzantine
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Tactics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Matt Kollmer
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject: Early Byzantine

SO! my Zulu are painted...mostly, may need some more LMI warriors as LI Laughing
and my 100YWE just need a camp and minor things.....

for years Ive contemplated Early Byzantine....I really like this era...and a crazy general called Belisarius!
here's the list...I have different thoughts on the army...on one hand, not much punch....on the other hand, a lot of versatile troops that can win if used together effectively.
I worry about its overall effectiveness vs P, EL, Kn.
Thoughts on the list and the Army as a whole??

2 **R/A HC L B sh +PAS 1/2 R/B
2 *R/A HC L B sh +PS 1/2 R/B
2 R/B HC L B sh
2 R/B HC L B sh
2 R/B HC L B sh
2 R/B LC JLS sh
2 R/B LC JLS sh
2 R/B LC JLS sh
6 R/C MI LTS JLS D sh
6 R/C MI LTS JLS D sh
4 R/C LMI JLS D sh
4 R/C LMI JLS D sh
6 R/D LMI B sh
6 R/D LMI B sh
4 I/C LC JLS B 1/2 sh
4 I/C LC JLS B 1/2 sh
4 I/C LC JLS B 1/2 sh
2 R/C LI JLS 1/2 sh
2 R/C LI S 1/2 sh

1606 pts
68 SP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1089
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Early Byzantine has so many of the troops I really like to use:
regular LMI shooters - some of which have jls to boot
regular HC L,B,Sh
regular LI and LC
solid foot with ability to push away skirmishers

E. Byz is certainly a little limited with punch but then again I run Tepanec which also has little punch and I do ok.

I think the army is very versatile - excellent in the open and more than capable in terrain. It can take on elephants due to the shooting and LTS,Jls.

I would assume that Moldavian/Wallachian will prove a challenge on more open tables - but your shooting should help win the light battle. Other knight armies will not have the lights necessary to win that battle, BUT may be able to hit "soft" targets and your HC will have to be able to dance with them to draw then out and away.

Pikes.... I would think winning the flanks would be paramount as you have nothing to be able to stop the super-Macedonian pikemen but most armies have that problem and have to beat the other troops to gain a victory.

E. Byz is a solid army IMO.

Todd

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1292
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject:

My question here would be "What do the Skutatoi close order foot do?"

What they don't do is evade.

What could happen to them is your HC/LI/LC/LMI get pushed back and the Skutatoi flank(s) are revealed.

I would recommend also evaluating Maurikian Byzantine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
scott holder
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5874
Location: Bonnots Mill, MO

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject:

I can comment on this with some veracity as this is the only "power" list I play--I bring it back to the NICT each year in case I need to round out the field.

CinC 2E Reg A/B EHC L, B, Sh PA 207
Sub 2E Reg A/B EHC L, B, Sh P 137
2E Reg B HC L, Sh 76
2E Reg B HC L, Sh 76
2E Reg B HC L, Sh 76
2E Reg B HC L, Sh 76
2E Reg B LC JLS, Sh 46
2E Reg B LC JLS, Sh 46
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS, JLS, Sh 106
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS, JLS, Sh 106
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS, JLS, Sh 106
4E Reg C HI/MI LTS, JLS, Sh 106
4E Reg C LMI JLS, D, Sh 90
4E Reg C LMI JLS, D, Sh 90
4E Reg C LMI B, 1/2 Sh 66
4E Reg C LI S, Sh 42
4E Reg C LI S, Sh 42
4E Reg C LI JLS, Sh 42
4E Reg C LMI B, 1/2 Sh 66

1602 pts, 31 Scouting

You play this list with "pods" with the HC deployed alternative between the Scut units. You need two HC operating in tandem to get close to cav, then run away, then have the second HC there to work next bound. These tend to work, in theory, around the Scut units.

You have to know the list rules and work out the moving parts with that in mind, always.

Note the lack of Darts and Bows. This has been covered before. The Scuts don't need the Darts. Yeah, elephants pose a problem and a pike trash list with elephants is probably the only rock/paper/scissors situation this list doesn't like. Nonetheless, even with dart-armed Scuts, if you're getting into a slug fest battle with elephants, tactically you've misplayed the game (or your opponent has outplayed you). I'm trying to remember how me and Matt's NICT game went a couple of years back. He was running Alex Imperial and won. That would be the closest I've come to the "worst case" matchup with this list given my dearth of playing.

The HC doesn't want bow because if you're engaging anybody in a shooting battle, you're losing. Plus it helps with non-prompting situations.

I know all the Kool Kidz loves them their 2E LI units. Not me. I can't run them worth a crap; it's like giving the other guy points.

I'm convinced that this list could win an NICT. I'd like to see how it plays at 2000pts because you can have lots of the Scut/HC pods, decent shooting, great terrain troops and plenty of lights.

scott

_________________
These Rules Suck, Let's Paint!


Last edited by scott holder on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   Visit poster's website
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1292
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject:

As Scott alludes to, this is very much a combined arms make-all-the-pieces function army...

He has 'enough' Skutatoi for the purpose of having small gaps with HC in between.

He is correct about the HC not needing/wanting bow (you don't want to be shooters to front in many situations).

He is also somewhat correct about HI instead of Dart for Skuts.

However, these choices apply to how he runs the army, as described.

Skuts as 'stand alones' without the HC do not work without Dart as enemy lights just pin them.

HC L,Sh 'out there' on their own are...not so good against much.

Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Matt Kollmer
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:04 am    Post subject:

Interesting list... I like it actually....
Now that you mention it Scott. I remember that game... albeit not well. I remember the Elephants being important and I believe I rolled long on a couple of Companion charges to catch some HC. I think the Hypastpists won the game for beating Limitani and possibly Skuts? With El help?
But I do remember struggling on my right against the HC/ Skut combo.
Good thoughts overall. Dropping B from HC isn't something I thought of but probably right. I originally had skuts in 4E units... then felt the extra Elements gave them staying power. But HI would help there.
I'd definitely have wanted to run the LMI B in 6E units though. No?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1089
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject:

Don't forget the "Crusader" formation allowing the Cav to charge through the Skuts.

True about the B and the HC - no need to have it as they can evade at any time and don't forget that if you're caught you can countercharge giving you a chance in the fight as well.

Todd

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2053
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject:

Allow me to rain on this parade a little bit. Blame Scott; he's the one who called this an NICT-worthy list.

I would happily play against this list with any of the armies I regularly bring to tournament play. Let's take a quick look at some of the matchups:

Wallachian: With an abundance of light cav that fight rank and a half, as well as shielded light infantry that can charge impetuously, the Byzantine light troops are just dead. There are too few Byzantine lights, and they aren't high enough quality. Nor can the Byzantines use HC to chase off Wallachians lights. The LC will simply evade (or not) while shooting your HC to pieces, and the LI will happily take charges at the halt knowing the knights have their back.

Without the ability to extent frontage using lights, the Byzantine flanks are now vulnerable. And since some of the Wallachian LC are Mongol regulars (as are some HC), those flanks can be exploited in a hurry.

If it comes to a straight up "scrum", no problem. Dismount a knight unit or two to go into the Byzantine foot, and keep the other knight units handy to ward off HC and charge in against recoiling and disordered Byzantines.

10 Independent States: The Chinese bring roughly 300 bows to the table, so anything in the Byzantine army with a bow is going to be rendered ineffective. Byzantine lights will be quickly shot off the line, and so again frontage coverage will be an issue.

While the Skutatoi will beat the Chinese LTS,B guys straight up, they don't beat them quickly. There will be no routs at contact, maybe not even a recoil disordered. And the Chinese have enough skirmishing / light troops to screen off some of the Skutatoi. Then there are Chinese "pods" of an elephant unit in tandem with a firelance-equipped HI LTS unit. Neither the Skutatoi nor the HC have any answer to this combination. It will simply walk over and rout whatever it comes in contact with.

All of this still leaves the Chinese 2 units of Reg A EHC and 2 units of Irr A LMI that can wreak havoc on anything exposed.

Shang Chinese: This match-up is fairly tough for the Shang. The chariots don't beat the Skutatoi, although it's close and an occaisional soak off charge to pin a Skutatoi unit in place is not unreasonable. Instead this would be a game of frontage coverage and exposing flanks. The Shang bring enough shooting to dominate in this approach, and the Byzantines have no answer to the Shang light chariots out on the wings. The Shang also have a good ability to operate in brush, thanks to 48 figures of Reg B LMI 2HCT, operating in tandem with some regular LI are regular LMI bowmen. And the HC are pretty useless against the Shang -- the LMI 2HCT guys don't really fear them, the heavy chariots will fight HC all day long and win, and there's nothing else in the Shang army that the HC can catch.

It has already been noted that pike/elephant armies pose a problem for the Byzantines. So what, exactly, is it that you guys think you're going to beat with the Byzantines?

Sorry; I guess I'm channeling my inner Ewan a bit this morning.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
jamiepwhite
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Darts!

I've actually played E Byz once against Dave stier's Wallachians, he crushed my sub general's command before I could counter the whole command back behind the forted up skut units in between the woods. Irregular impetuous knights on foot do beat skut, but impetuous lance charges through skut in crusader order would beat dismounted knights. Two generals is normal, two knight units were in that Wallachian list.

On to the more important issue, darts! Smile You will see early byzantine at the NICT, it is very popular. The problem is dealing with the skutatoi because every early Byz player has their own personal skut flavor.

MI LTS JLS Sh - popular with the cheap skutatoi faction, which has many adherents
MI LTS JLS D Sh - another option, but better fielded in 16s than 24s I think.
HI/MI LTS JLS Sh - also very popular, as many people recognize the power of the front rank HI option that let's skut wreck a lot of other commonly out there. Derek and Steve like this option I think
HI/MI LTS JLS D Sh - The faction of "skutatoi are demigod like descendants of roman legionairres" that I favor.

I like the criticism of Early Byz, but i think you need to allow for the presence of armor or darts in considering the match ups.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1292
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject:

Dart helps ensure you beat elephants with Skutatoi...and that you have 'something' to do against skirmishing lights other than stare at them.

Yes, the plan is to send cav through at enemy lights in that circumstance, but it may not be possible...you have only so much cav and a good frontage of table to manage.

Let's look, for a moment, at an EHC general charging impetuously through or around Skutatoi in Crusader Order against some dismounted knights.

If the Byzantine player is not careful, the dismounted knights will be able to charge impetuously against the Skutatoi, hitting the EHC...but lets say a successful counter was made to pull the Skutatoi back a pace or so.

5@7 for EHC is 30, 4@4 + 2@2 = 16...the dismounted knights are nearly routed...so seems good.

However, your Early Byzantine army will have about 2 such EHC units (your generals). You can get the HC charging impetuously based on a nearby general...but they fair worse against the dismounted knights as 30 against 21.

The key is what happens 'later'...you won't be able to expand out your EHC or HC against the knights you beat as then you'd have an overlap exposed to an impetuous mounted knight charge onto your Sub or CinC!

So...now you are 3@4 for 9 against 4@1 + 2@-1 for 7. You still win, causing a waver test...but it's close...and if the geometry is bad for you an impetuous knight unit crashes into and routs your general.

Very tricky situation...and risky...and assumes you have taken a defensive posture with Skutatoi in some corner and lancers behind.

Also, if you don't have Darts...SHK could come in on your Skuts and may win, pushing them back disordered and causing wavers.

I definitely consider Early Byzantine at a significant disadvantage against a SHK army.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1016

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject:

This is great stuff!!!!
I am going to copy it and safe it.
I run Nike Byz, and most of it will carry over.
On my way to be a "Power Gamer"
Very Happy
EK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2053
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject:

Ed Kollmer wrote:
This is great stuff!!!!
I am going to copy it and safe it.
I run Nike Byz, and most of it will carry over.
On my way to be a "Power Gamer"
Very Happy
EK


Well, Nikephoran is a whole different beast, with more and better LC, and most importantly the Varangians with all their snazzy list rules. If I were running Nikephoran -- and I do, from time to time -- then I wouldn't even bother with close order foot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1016

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:09 am    Post subject:

True.....True....Mark.
Sadly, having ~~3 x 8El of Skuts. I never really use them,
I have your email from 2004 about the Varangians. Use it when I build a list.
My one question is: You said that the Nike's have better LC. What do you mean??
EK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1292
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject:

I think Mark is more or less referring to the 'more' LC on the Nikephoran list.

...which starts out as just Bow...cheaper.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1016

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject:

AH........
Very interesting.......
Good.....
I see.
Thanks
Ed the Anti-Power Player.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Tactics All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group