Warrior Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
 
  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups AlbumAlbum   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Pike armed foot

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Rules
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Horseman
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Pike armed foot

OK and another one - sorry guys

Pike armed foot receiving more casualties than they inflict and at least 1 cpf become disordered unless already disordered in which case they recoil.

A body receiving 3 cpf in combat becomes disordered.

So if a pike armed foot body receives 3 cpf and receives more casualties than it inflicted (obviously not more than double as that would break them) does it;

A) Recoil disordered
B) Become disordered and then test for waver due to a second combat cause of disorder
C) You get to choose either option A or B
D) Something else entirely

Basically is there a strict order I should be applying the combat results?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Ed Kollmer
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1018

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject:

I am not an expert but I love to make a guess.
I guys on the list "tolerate" and humor me. They are great guys. They put up with me.
My guess: B recoil and take waver test.
My final answer .

Can't wait for the correct answer!!! Wink
EK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: not quite

We're looking at a foot on foot fight, of course, as if the pike lost to mounted they would be recoiling disordered even if not disordered.

B) does not occur because all combat causes of disorder from the same hth combat are simultaneous...note that a unit disordered by support shooting WOULD take a waver is disordered during the hth (as it was disordered prior to the melee).

11.2 is fairly clear in what happens in this case read from top to bottom...

The pike do not recoil as they were not disordered BEFORE that hth combat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Horseman
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: not quite

Frank Gilson wrote:
We're looking at a foot on foot fight, of course, as if the pike lost to mounted they would be recoiling disordered even if not disordered.

B) does not occur because all combat causes of disorder from the same hth combat are simultaneous...note that a unit disordered by support shooting WOULD take a waver is disordered during the hth (as it was disordered prior to the melee).

11.2 is fairly clear in what happens in this case read from top to bottom...

The pike do not recoil as they were not disordered BEFORE that hth combat.


Thanks again Frank.

I assumed as there was two causes of disorder (3cpf and losing with at least 1 cpf) that you'd test for waver. But your reply would seem to suggest they become disordered and nothing else.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject:

That is correct...even if the pike are taking 3 CPF (but not routing) and losing, as it is the same melee the disorder happens at the same time (one disorder).

So, no waver, and the pike were not disordered prior to the melee...so they don't recoil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject:

Not a rules point, but a strategy comment related to these rules:
Getting pike to be both recoiling and taking a cause of disorder, and doing this on successive bounds, so that they waver test for second cause of disorder, is hard. At least if all you have to work with against the pike is foot.

Regulars like Romans either barely win on the first bound or don't win, and are generally much more expensive than pike so thus occupy less frontage.

Regulars like Meso-Americans don't do enough shooting to seriously affect the Macedonian Pike with their particular list rules.

Irregulars like Spanish hit hard at first contact, but typically don't rout Macedonian pike at contact since those pike can generally counter-charge by list rule.

Bottom line: you best path to success against pikes is going to be combined arms attacks with foot and mounted charging together, where the mounted provide a cause of disorder and the foot provide the margin of victory.

Carthaginians are a good example, with elephants and regular LMI HTW,JLS guys charging together.

Timurids can pull off much the same trick with elephants and LHI 2HCW guys charging together.

Nikephorans with SHC and Varangians charging together.

Various knight armies with a mix of mounted and dismounted knights, or mounted knights and some kind of impetuous foot (Brigans, for example).

Note that the mounted don't have to win to cause disorder. They just have to be part of an overall winning combat in which they themselves do not break or break off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject:

Mark's comments are correct...but do rely on a pike unit being 2E wide (or more).

So, stretching the pike army's frontage is important so that they have to 'widen out' even their 4E pike units.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Horseman
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for replies all.

One thing to consider mark - Whilst Roman heavy infantry is more expensive man for man V pikes; unit by unit the pikes come out more as to be effective they need to be in 4 ranks. Its not huge amounts of difference (138 v 106 assuming 2e frontage for both units) but if one unit of Romans occupy one unit of pikes you have a slight advantage elsewhere and the pikes wont roll over the Romans either (though the fight is slightly in their favour)

If the pikes have front rank HI then that's another 16 pts that won't see a benefit until the 2nd bound of combat (and minimal until the 3rd bound if using Roman list rules)

On another note my first game of Warrior is complete! Fun had by both parties and a rematch is being scheduled as my friend wants revenge! (and is now perusing the army lists to find one he likes the feel of, I suspect he might go for a pike army. But until he has his own he now knows what I have that he can use to try out different styles)

Didn't take too long at all even though we had to continually refer to the rule book and minimal mistakes were made (that we know of!)

I might try and put together a short AAR when I get the chance. It even has pictures!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Horseman
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject:

Frank Gilson wrote:
Mark's comments are correct...but do rely on a pike unit being 2E wide (or more).

So, stretching the pike army's frontage is important so that they have to 'widen out' even their 4E pike units.


From my experience in the past (using later Seleucids) it tends not to be the pike than win the day but rather the "supporting" troops on the flanks.

There's only two times I can remember my pike block actually fighting and that was:

1) Against my Uncles Spartans. He had (unwisely) decided to counter my pike with his Spartans also formed up 4 ranks deep and back in 7th Ed. days there was not extra fighting figures for that and his LTS got -2 at first contact......He also advanced his center to fight mine which I was more than happy to oblige. Of course he was badly out matched on the flanks too as those Reg A HI Spartans were costing way more than my MI pike blocks!

2) Against my Dads Samnites. Loads and loads of Reg C LMI JLS SH and some Cavalry. Oh my confidence as my pike block pushed forward, my flanks although badly overlapped had Cataphracts, Companions, Roman armed Agyrasipids and dual armed Peltasts....nothing that couldn't handle what he had. He played a blinder and used terrain to pin my flanks, too frightened to attack disadvantaged and too late i realised that as my Pike pushed through that their flanks passed his lines and were ripe for some crafty charges. I learned some valuable lessons that day and my Dad gained some bragging rights (up until then I'd always mocked his Samnites as not being able to beat anything!)

Every other battle my pikes pinned enemy troops, controlled space and gave my flanks time to do some magic. It usually became a race between my strong flank winning and my weak flank losing as I could rarely afford the points to have both able to match my opponents (Even Reg C MI pikes are costly when taken 4 deep!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
lilroblis
Legionary
Legionary


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Cleveland Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Army usage - Pikes

So I run Seluicid and love it - my pike almost always fights - and it is good durable foot - the last major loss I had with them we played 22 turns in 3.5 hours and my pike never fought. My rule is everything fights in every battle where odds are reasonable and I win enough and then exploit to win the game. It is all playing style - and I gave up on Romans as they are not even effective speed bumps against knights
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2102
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:11 am    Post subject:

It is all about personal playing style. We have gone through several long cycles over the years where pike and elephant armies were the dominant type, and for good reason. They are not at present the dominant type here in the U.S. Why is a longer discussion.

I appreciate Robert's playing style with the Seleucids, and he has thumped me more than once with them. By contrast I am leery of close order foot, but I do expect:
* Everyone with a missile weapon in my army should finish the game tired for shooting or they're not pulling their weight;
* Most units should have a missile weapon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
lilroblis
Legionary
Legionary


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Cleveland Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Pike and playing style

The really good players find a few spots they will certainly win and go do it - or don't fight at all. I will almost always fight when I can- even if at a disadvantage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Rules All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group