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Shang Chinese

 
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Shang Chinese

Frank Gilson encouraged me to post something on my thoughts about Shang Chinese. So here goes.

General Considerations. Anyone who has watched me select army lists over the years knows that I'm attracted to lists that are unusual and off-beat, and that often there's a troop type that, in my thinking, goes from "man, these guys suck" to "wow, these guys are the key to the whole list." Shang is just such an army; not an "A" list army by any means, but one with a unique character. For me, Shang Chinese was the end of a two part quest:
    * Can chariots be an effective shock troop?
    * What list has the best chariots?


Thinking about chariots. At first glance, chariots appear to have a number of problems as shock troops:
    * Light chariots are brittle in that, as mounted lights, they must break off if they lose to other mounted;
    * 2 horse heavy chariots are just terrible as shock troops;
    * 4 horse heavy chariots seem weak at best as shock troops, since they cannot beat any common line foot troop types -- they lose badly to pike, generally start out losing to LTS- or 2HCT-armed foot.


What to do? One option is to bolster the attack strength of chariots by putting a detachment of foot armed with JLS behind them, which can then fight as a second rank. This helps. It generally tips the math in your favor against LTS- or 2HCT-armed foot, and can even give you a narrow advantage against MI with pike. But you sacrafice some key advantages of being mounted, namely the ability to move after foot in approaches and the ability to go long in pursuit of evaders. I reluctantly concluded that foot detachments were not the answer.

The other option is to look at 4 horse heavy chariots whose crew have either LTS or 2HCT. This won't magically solve problems if fighting pike, but does give you a reasonable matchup against LTS or 2HCT foot, and greatly improves your matchup against other mounted.

These considerations pretty much take you out of Biblical Warrior and into Oriental Warrior. You're then looking at a choice between irregular chariots (Shang, Zhou) and regular chariots (Qin, Han). There are some other considerations that point to Shang.

I eventually concluded that for chariots to be effective, you need a lot of chariots. And in particular, you need to compliment your heavy chariots with a strong contingent of light chariots.

Like heavy chariots, light chariots need to have either LTS or 2HCT. And to be effective as part of your light troops / skirmisher contingent, battling enemy light troops, the crew must also have bow. And the chariots must have four horses.

So there you have it. If the requirement is 4 horse light chariots whose crew have both bow and LTS (or 2HCT), then there is exactly one list in all of Warrior that meets this requirement: Shang Chinese.

Add to this an abundance of chariots overall, so that you can have several good units of light chariots and several good units of heavy chariots, and again you're led really to just one list: Shang Chinese.

You also have some interesting options that I ended up not pursuing, but that will appeal to some:
    * You can take a Northern Barbarian Ally to get some respectable shock foot (Irr A LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh backed by 1HCW,JLS,Sh).
    * You can take a Zhou Ally that gets you even more chariots, as well as detachments of Irr B LMI JLS that can fight behind them.


So there you have it. A clear line of reasoning from "I want to run a chariot army" to Shang Chinese. I'll follow this post with some comments on the specific choices I made in configuring the army, and some of the specific virtues I'm tring to showcase with those choices.


Last edited by Mark Stone on Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:08 am    Post subject:

Hummm.......
MattK has a 15mm chinese army. Not sure which one..
Wondering if we should try to morph it into a Shang....
EK
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject:

So let's talk about light chariots. I run my light chariots in 4 chariot units, 2 wide, 2 deep. This bucks the convention of playing models only one rank deep, but that's okay, the convention is just wrong. I run 4 horse in the front rank, and 2 horse in the back rank, thus shaving off a few points.

These guys put out the same amount of shooting as their LI and LC opponents, provided they can get into (or deploy in) skirmish: 3 figures shooting on an element's frontage. Against non-skirmishing LC or non-skirmishing shieldless LI that's enough to inflict 2 CPF on even die rolls, thus forcing a "recall or waver" on your opponent.

And one of the virtues of chariots becomes immediately apparent when you look at the return fire: say your opponent gets 8, or even -- with an overlap 12 figures of lights shooting back at your skirmishing 4 model chariot unit. That's 12 @ 3 -2 (for skirmishing) is 12@1 = 18. That's not even a CPF. A couple of things matter here. First, you're matching up your models (5 figures) with enemy elements (2 figures). Second, unlike LC, your LCh always count shielded when shooting.

Bottom line: you're a shooting threat to other lights, and they are not a shooting threat to you.

What about hand to hand matchups?

Well, chariot combat factors suck against LI, but that doesn't really matter. You are a cause of unease, so virtually all LI will test uneasy when charged by chariots. If you fail to do a CPF, your chances of breaking through are good. Generally, this is not a matchup LI wants to be part of.

It gets even worse for LC. If you want to beat impetuous Shang light chariots then you have to (a) be impetuous, (b) have javelins, (c) fight rank and a half, (d) not be tired at contact, and (e) not have taken a CPF in support shooting coming in. The show stopper is really the first thing: be impetuous. Because chariots are a cause of unease, enemy LC really needs to be Irr B (or Irr A) in order to be impetuous.

Go ahead and look at the army lists for commonly played armies. Get back to me when you find the one that has JLS-armed LC who fight rank and a half and are Irr B. Take all the time you need.

So in virtually all on table matchups, Shang light chariots dominate against all other light troops. Combined with the potent shooting options available to Shang (more on this later), Shang really should completely dominate the early "exchange of light troops" phase of the game, and thus carry that advantage into the mid-game.

Oh, and just for fun, here's an interesting mid-game ploy. Imagine you're playing Shang and you're up against Seleucids or Alexandrian Imperial or such. Your 4 models of light chariots make a non-impetuous charge against his 4 elements of Peltastoi (Reg C LMI LTS,JLS,Sh), and, moving second, you've lined up this charge to be offset, so that at contact only one element's frontage will be fighting. What happens?

First, he makes a waver as uneasy Cs. If he fails, he's dead. But suppose he passes.

You don't support shoot. This is important.

Combat, assuming even rolls:
    * The Pelts get LTS vs. LCh = 3 + 1 (JLS) - 1 (facing chariot LTS = 6@3 = 15. Not a CPF against a 20 figure unit, even rolling up 1.
    * The chariots: horse vs. LMI = 2 + 1 (charging) -2 (facing LTS) = 4@1 = 6. The crew gets 1 @ 2 = 2. 6+2 = 8, also not a CPF.


Since nobody did a CPF, the light chariots break through, disordering the Pelts, who are now dead to pretty much anything that meets them. The light chariots, meanwhile, are rallying neither tired nor disordered in the enemy backfield.

The light chariots are also vital against Meso American armies, because they provide something with a 160p tactical move that can move up to 40p from enemy LMI and keep them from skirmishing away. It helps that the light chariots are also not all that concerned about shooting from Meso American armies.

The point of both these examples is that not only are the Shang light chariots the dominant light troop type in Warrior, they can also situationally act as shock troops because light chariots, unlike other light troops, can frontally charge anything.

Again: only Shang Chinese offers this particular threat.

In my next post I'll talk about an unusual heavy chariot configuration that is also unique to Shang.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject:

By list rule, 2 horse heavy chariots on the Shang list may skirmish. Is this useful? Yes, in fact it's very useful.

First, consider the durability of such a unit in the face of enemy missile fire. Bow against HCh is a 2, and if in skirmish (HCh counted shielded when skirmishing) that drops to a 0. In other words, when shooting, HCh in skirmish have essentially the same resistance to missile fire as bow-armed SHC do when shooting.

If we make a unit that has 3 of these chariots in column, then when in skirmish it fires 6 figures on a single element's frontage: first crew counts double (2 figures), second crew counts normal (1 figure); first rank counts full (3 figures), next two ranks count half (half of 6 is 3). That's fairly dense shooting right there, as much density as regular loose formation foot in skirmish.

However, we can do better. Note also that some Shang chariots can get LI mounted on the base, and that we can choose to have those LI armed with bow. This will boost our 6 figures of shooting while skirmish to 8 figures, making these heavy chariots the only mounted troop type in the game that can achieve 8 figures firing on a single element's frontage. In addition this boosts our 5 figure model to counting as 7 figures, making it even more resistant to both shooting and hand to hand casualties.

Consider that for a moment. One of these units counts as 7 + 7 (first two ranks) + 4 (half the third rank) = 18 figure unit. And it presents only one element's frontage. To do 3 CPF in either shooting or hand to hand, you have to get to 54 casualties. That's incredibly difficult against a target with a very low factor as a shooting target and one that inflicts the -1 for chariot LTS as a hand to hand target. Further, the entire unit is Irr B (including the LI on the base), so the prospect of having to take the occasional waver test is not daunting.

Such a unit is expensive: 133 points, the same as 6 figures of Irr B SHK L,Sh. However, invulnerability is cheap at any price. I have never lost one of these units in a game, and they are often in the middle of the fray. In addition, the density of shooting these units put out means they can anchor a dense shooting attack as a significant threat profile that Shang present.

This shooting threat can work in a couple of ways. First, the skirmishing heavy chariots can work in tandem with some of the abundant dense shooting that Shang offer. More on that later.

Second, you can interleave skirmishing heavy chariots with your light troops. This means that in a matchup of lights you go from shooting parity to big shooting advantage, as well as positioning these non-light units where they could charge off enemy LC if necessary, or inflict a waver test by charging LI if it made sense situationally.

A word of caution about these units. A unit of models 3 ranks deep takes up a lot of depth. From front to rear, that unit will fill 240 paces. So these units also represent a big opportunity to inflict traffic jams on yourself. And they really need to be deployed in the right place, because you will not be relocating them in battle.

One trick to mitigate this is to deploy 3 wide and one rank deep. Also, deploy in skirmish to start with. By being 3 wide you leave more maneuver room behind, and you give yourself a choice of 3 spots on which to consolidate into column. I have, on the rare occasion, been able to "spider walk" these units to a new location by a sequence of expand and contract maneuvers in the desired direction.

Bottom line: the Shang skirmishing heavy chariots are uniquely useful units. No other list gets (a) heavy chariot crew that are entirely bow armed but also have LTS or 2HCT, (b) bow-armed LI on the base without dropping a morale class, (c) the ability to skirmish. At the same time, these units are a prime example of some of the challenges in running Shang. These are large, unwieldy units that can cause all manner of maneuver problems if not used in a clear, focused manner to accomplish a specific goal on the battlefield.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject:

So now we come to the heart of the Shang army -- the shock troops, Irr B 4 horse HCh, crew of 1 w/LTS,B and 1 w/JLS,B.

Here are some of the challenges with using these as actual shock troops:
    * They lose when frontally charging MI P,Sh. If impetuous, the chariots do 15 and the pikes do 20. If not impetuous, the chariots do 11 and the pikes do 16.
    * They lose when frontally charging LMI LTS,JLS,Sh. If impetuous, the chariots do 15 and the LMI do 18. If not impetuous, the chariots do 11 and the LMI do 15.
    * They lose when frontally charging HI LTS,Sh. If impetuous, the chariots do 13 and the LTS do 15. If not impetuous, the chariots do 9 and the LTS do 12.
    * They break even when frontally charging HI or LHI foot armed with 2HCT. Impetuously, the chariots do 15, the 2HCT do 15.
    * They lose in a mutual impetuous charge against SHK, EHK, or HK. The chariots do 22 (23 against HK), the knights do 25.
    * They lose in a mutual impetuous charge against lance-armed SHC. The chariots do 22, the SHC do 24.
    * They lose in a mutual impetuous charge against lance-armed EHC. The chariots do 19, the EHC do 25.
    * They barely beat lance-armed HC in a mutual impetuous charge. The chariots do 21, the HC do 20 (assuming the chariots inflict 1 CPF in support shooting on the way in).
    * They lose against elephants as badly as all other mounted do.


So how in the heck can you use these guys as shock troops when they cannot beat any of the standard line troops and they cannot beat any of the mounted shock troops?

There are five considerations here that can change the balance:
    * Durability. Note that in the matchups described above, none of the casualties racked up by the enemy suffice to do 3 CPF to a 10 figure unit. So even in a losing combat, the chariots will typically recoil or break off without being disordered. They will then be tired, but far from helpless. So unlike other mounted, chariots tend to be very durable when on the losing end of a combat.
    * Persistent damage. One of the big drawbacks to lance-armed cavalry is that, while they put out a lot of damage at contact, they cannot easily sustain that after the first bound. For example, against EHC or HC knights will hit first bound with 5@7 for 30, but if they fail to rout their opponent in the follow up they'll only do 3@2 (or 3@1 if disordered). Cavalry following up will fare even worse against the Shang chariots, because they'll face the -1 for chariot LTS every bound. By contrast, the chariots put out more consistent damage in follow-up compared to charging. At contact they have 6 figures fighting (4 horse, 2 crew), and in follow-up they still have 6 figures fighting. So if they can win at all, they tend to keep winning. Crucially, though, this means that chariot combats tend to take longer to play out. In a time-limited tournament game, you therefore have to work to get them into combat quickly.
    * Missile fire. The heavy chariots put out a non-trival 3 figures shooting, and are typically surrounded by a host of other shooters. That means that against knights, EHC, and HC the opportunity to put on 1 or 2 CPF in prep shooting are very good, and then these enemy units will be tired at contact when charging. That one factor for tired generally tips the balance in the chariots' favor.
    * Break through rules. Your chariots and some enemy knights charge each other, and the knights win but fail to rout. In the subsequent bound it is almost impossible for either the knights or the chariots to do a CPF to each other. Therefore the chariots are allowed to break through, causing a waver test for the knights (second cause of disorder; the knights were almost certainly disordered by the initial chariot charge). So now the knights are in a must rally situation, tired and disordered, with steady chariots rallying behind them.
    * Cost. A 2 model unit of Shang 4 horse heavy chariots costs 77 points. Contrast that with 133 points for a 2 stand SHK unit. Shang are almost certainly going to have more chariots on the table than your opponent has shock mounted. Your other troops are cheap too, as we'll see, and so the sheer size of the Shang army becomes a factor.


The net of all this is that you can afford to play the Shang chariots pretty aggressively and your opponent, faced with an unorthodox threat, has a variety of ways to bungle the response to this aggression. Merely beating the chariots at contact isn't enough, because of their durability. Your opponent has to have an effective follow up. But pushing forward with enough shock troops to provide follow up is hard to do without your opponent exposing his troops to a high volume of prep shooting. And in the end your opponent simply may not have enough shock troops of his own to cover the broad threat frontage that Shang present.

The key insight is to realize that even though you may lose to enemy mounted in certain matchups, you aren't at risk because you lost. Between the durability of the chariots, the way the break through rules can reverse a combat, and the numerical superiority that can swarm unsupported enemy winners, you really fear no enemy mounted. You have to be careful about enemy foot line troops, but even here you can afford some selective soak off attacks if it opens up the mounted versus mounted engagements that you want. At the end of the day you will beat your enemy's shock troops because your chariots will beat his mounted. Get your chariots into his mounted as aggressively as you can.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:

So that's the chariots. Now we come to the foot troops. Right now we'll focus on just this line:
Quote:
Chinese Axemen or Spearmen Irr C MI/LMI 2HCW or 1HCW or LTS or JLS... 12-96


Wow, that is a lot of foot troops and a lot of flexibility in how to configure them. Note that any can be upgraded to Reg C, and that half of the Reg C foot can be upgraded to Reg B. Also, any can have shields.

Some options can be ruled out. I don't think it makes sense to take these troops as Irr C. If you want impetuously charging LMI you have better options elsewhere on the list, and for common unit size configurations the points cost per unit for Reg vs. Irr is going to be about the same. Also, it doesn't make sense to take these guys with LTS. Typically LTS troops are used as line troops to fill frontage. They don't kill much, but they don't rout easily, so they fill space well and cheaply. However, Shang has an abundance of bow-armed foot that play that role more effectively, and Shang is an army that has no difficulty covering frontage.

JLS, and therefore regular LMI armed with JLS, is a valid choice. The chariots are not allowed to go in woods or brush, and so you need some options for being able to put troops in terrain that can at least hold their position. Reg C LMI JLS,Sh are very serviceable in that regard. Not many rough terrain troops can easily get rid of them, and LMI can easily chase off LI. So having some or all of this required foot as LMI JLS,Sh is reasonable.

However, the line that really caught my eye is further down the list, the first line for the Shang period (the list covers both Xia and Shang Dynasty):
Quote:
Extra to replace Chinese 2HCW with 2HCT... any


Regular LMI with 2HCT (half shielded) is very nearly a shock troop type. These guys have no problem facing off against enemy HC, or LTS troops, or peltasts (LTS,JLS,Sh). And while I wouldn't lead with them in many attacks, I love having them as follow up troops to hit flanks or open overlaps of enemy units. And if they are going to play that role, they need to be high morale. Their combat rolls need to be as dependable as possible, they need to counter well, and they will have to pass the occasional waver test. So I take this required foot as 3 units, 4 stands each, of Reg B LMI 2HCT, half shielded. Since only half the Reg Cs can be upgraded to B this obliges me to take 12 stands of some other kind of foot as Reg C, but I probably want to do that anyway.

Here are some scenarios in which these guys prove their value:
    * While not awesome in woods (can't use 2HCT), these guys are solid terrain troops in brush or on a steep hill.
    * Suppose another Shang unit is engaged in combat with a unit that is HI P,Sh in the front rank, and that said pike unit is overlapping your Shang unit. The Shang 2HCT can charge and beat that overlap: P vs. LMI = 3 -1 (facing 2HCT) = 2, 8@2 =16. 2HCT vs. HI = 5 +1 (charging) -2 (facing P) = 4. 6@4 = 18.
    * Suppose a unit of enemy EHC has charged and recoiled one of your chariot units, and expanded in follow-up. The Shang 2HCT can charge that overlap and do 6@4 = 18. It is very unlikely that the EHC are going to do 9 casualties to your chariot and 2HCT, meaning the EHC rout.
    * Suppose a Shang chariot has just broken through an enemy SHK unit (see previous comments), leaving said SHK tired, disordered, possibly shaken, and in a must rally situation. So you frontally charge the SHK with the 2HCT guys. Your opponent now has the unenviable choice of taking a waver test to counter charge so he can avoid losing by twice as many (second cause of disorder, another waver) or taking it at the halt and getting further disordered or even routed on a +2 roll by the 2HCT. Either way, the SHK are going to rout in the 2HCT follow up bound.


So as Reg B LMI 2HCT these guys work extremely well in tandem with the chariots, and give you an option for some terrain coverage should you need it. That's my recommended way to purchase this required foot.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject:

In the immortal words of Darth Vader:
"impressive....... impressive.."
Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:56 am    Post subject:

And this is why, if there were ever a book on Warrior tactics and army selection, Mark should be the one to write it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject:

The melee foot are interesting, but what caught my eye about the army even before I started thinking about the chariots was the ridiculous quantity of shooting available. Consider these two lines:
Quote:
Chinese Bowmen or Archers Irr C MI/LMI/LI.... 12-72
Militia Irr D MI/LMI/LI each unit all JLS or all B.... 8-64

I first debuted Shang Chinese at Cold Wars 10 years ago, partnering with my son Alex. On that version of the army we took 5 units of 12 stands of Irr D MI B. That's 240 figures of shooting right there, and we still had more than 1600 points to spend on the rest of the army. Throw in some regular LMI B troops, so LI with bow, and all the chariot shooting, and we had over 300 figures of bow fire.

I don't buy the army with quite that extreme today, but that version was an interesting proof of concept.

The beauty of the Shang list is the way troops compliment each other. For the most part anything that is a threat to the bowmen is something that the chariots can deal with, and anything that is a threat to the chariots the bowmen can deal with.

For example: SHC are a real threat shiedless archers, but the chariots will happily engage the SHC. Elephants are a real threat to the chariots, but elephants don't want to come out from behind their protective foot line troops in the face of massive, dense bow fire.

The question, then, is how to put all of this theory into practice on the game table.

Let's start with the militia. On 1600 points, I like to take 2 of these units as 12 stands of Irr D MI B. Each unit costs a mere 73 points. Here are some tyipical ways to use them:
    * Put both units on one wing with a chariot unit in between them. You've now covered roughly 16 elements' frontage (almost half the table) with just 3 units that your opponent will be hard-pressed to eradicate. Any light troops he puts on that wing will crumble in the face of 100 figures of shooting, and have to be wary of getting charged by the chariots. There's no shock cavalry that can both endure the shooting and face the chariots. And sturdier foot like LMI still has to approach with care on account of the chariots.
    * Put one unit on each wing accompanied by light chariots. This is an aggressive "battle of the lights" approach. You're looking to get your light chariots into LI or LC that are tired and/or disordered, and you're using the MI to create enough prep shooting damage to make that possible. In the ideal case you disorder enemy lights with prep shooting, forcing them to recall or waver, but then putting them in a must rally situation so that the next bound's prep shoot gives them no choice but to waver -- and if they fail the chariots charge shaken troops.
    * Put one unit on one wing with the bulk of your light chariots, and flank march the other unit. 12 stands of Irr D MI B make an excellent flank marching unit. They represent no scouting points, so when you've declared all your scouting points you don't disclose the flank march. If it fails to show up or gets killed, it's just 73 points lost far away from the rest of your army. And the usual lurkers that are kept in reserve to deal with flank marchers --LI, LC, or other cavalry -- are going to prove vulnerable to such a volume of missile fire.


So what about the C class bowmen / archers? I love using regular LMI B troops. They provide density of shooting, but have the ability to skirmish away out of trouble on an evade or a counter. They work well in tandem with the chariots, particularly the skirmishing heavy chariots that put out such dense missile fire of their own. The problem is that none of your missile troops have yet discovered the shield, and no one in your army has yet discovered armor. So the LMI are always going to be shieldless.

My solution to this problem is to make them high morale. That way they counter reliably, and if they ever do get caught on the receiving end of significant enemy missile fire they have a good ability to pass waver tests. So I take 2 units of 16 figure of Reg B LMI B.

This means we've now bought 20 stands of Reg B troops, and are therefore obliged to have 20 stands of Reg C troops. So we buy 20 stands of Reg C LI B. So now, on 1600 points, your foot troops account for:
    * 96 figures of shooting from 2 units of Irr D MI B;
    * 32 figures of shooting from 2 units of Reg B MI B;
    * 40 figures of shooting from 20 stands of Reg C LI B.

That's 168 figures of shooting plus the considerable shooting that the chariots put out. All told you're going to have over 200 figures of shooting on 1600 points.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject:

We've now covered all the troops to which I give consideration when building a 1600 point version of Shang. There are two worthy ally options to consider: taking a Northern Barbarian Ally, or taking a Zhou Ally.

The Northern Barbarians offer some of the hardest hitting LMI you'll see in the game. The core is your standard Irr C LMI JLS,Sh. However, up to half can be double-armed with either 1HCW or 2HCW. The general's bodyguard can be upgraded to Irr B. And up to 4 stands of Irr C can be upgraded to Irr A. As an added bonus you get some LI with bow that can do something the native Shang bow-armed LI cannot: carry shields.

The LMI give you a legitimate hand to hand option for fighting elephants, particularly once those elephants are either tired or disordered from shooting. They also give you real woods troops, or something to work in tandem with your LMI 2HCT in brush or on steep hills. Finally, they make for a potent combined arms attack in tandem with the heavy chariots.

The Zhou give you even more chariots and give you chariot runner detachments that can be Irr B LMI JLS, thus fighting from behind a front rank of chariots in an impetuous charge. This straight ahead hitting power gives you troops that can confidently approach MI pikemen or HI LTS, and bolsters your attack against loose order foot (Meso Americans, Peltasts, Japanese).

Since we just finished Cold Wars, I'll present these two options this way -- assume you've got your core 1600 point list of pure Shang troops. Now you want a 2000 point army for the team tourney at Cold Wars. Here's a 400 point option adding a Northern Barbarian ally, and a 400 point option for adding a Zhou ally:

Norther Barbarians. For this option I'd drop one of the 48 figure Irr D MI B units off of the Shang list. The Northern Barbarians occupy a good deal of frontage, and you're likely to have traffic jam problems if you don't shorten up the Shang line to make room for them. So with 473 points to work with, you take:

Quote:
1 stand Ally w/Irr B LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh - 85 points
1 stand N Barb Warr Irr B LMI 1HCW,JLS,Sh - 15 points
2 stands N Barb Warr Irr B LMI JLS,Sh - 24 points
(unit total 124 points)

2 stands N Barb Warr Irr A LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh - 36 points
2 stands N Barb Warr Irr C LMI 1HCW,JLS,Sh - 24 points
4 stands N Barb Warr Irr C LMI JLS,Sh - 36 points
(unit total 121 points w/command factor)

2 stands N Barb Warr Irr A LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh - 36 points
2 stands N Barb Warr Irr C LMI 1HCW,JLS,Sh - 24 points
4 stands N Barb Warr Irr C LMI JLS,Sh - 36 points
(unit total 121 points w/command factor)

6 stands N Barb Archers Irr C LI B,Sh/B - 30 points
(unit total 55 points w/command factor)

6 stands N Barb Archers Irr C LI B,Sh/B - 30 points
(unit total 55 points w/command factor)


That's 5 units totaling 476 points.

The Zhou are a bit more compact and can work on fewer points, so you leave your 1600 points of Shang intact. For the Zhou, you take:
Quote:
Ally w/Irr B 4HCh 1 w/2HCT 1 w/B - 87 points
1 model Zhou Irr B 4HCh 1 w/2HCT 1 w/B - 27 points
2 stands Zhou Runners (detachment) Irr B LMI JLS,Sh/JLS - 21 points
(Unit total 145 points with detachment command factor)

2 models Zhou Irr B 4HCh 1 w/2HCT 1 w/B - 54 points
2 stands Zhou Runners (detachment) Irr B LMI JLS,Sh/JLS - 21 points
(Unit total 110 points with command factors)

4 stands Zhou Spear Reg C MI LTS,Sh - 64 points
(Unit total 74 points with command factor)

4 stands Zhou Archers Reg C LI B - 24 points
(Unit total 34 points with command factor)

4 stands Zhou Archers Reg C LI B - 24 points
(Unit total 34 points with command factor)


That's 5 units totaling 397 points.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject:

So there you have it, the complete analysis of Warrior's best chariot army, Shang Chinese. Here's the 1600 point version that I played for the Nationals at Historicon last year (and the version I will almost certainly be playing again this year):

Quote:
Unit 1 -
1 x CinC w/LTS,B Irr B 4HCh 1 w/JLS,B
1 x Irr B 2HCh 1 w/JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B

Unit 2 -
1 x Sub w/LTS,B Irr B 4HCh 1 w/JLS,B
1 x Irr B 4HCh 1 w/JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B

Unit 3 -
4 x Nobles Irr B 4LCh/2LCh 1 w/LTS,B

Unit 4 -
4 x Nobles Irr B 4LCh/2LCh 1 w/LTS,B

Unit 5 -
2 x Nobles Irr B 4LCh/2LCh 1 w/LTS,B

Unit 6 -
2 x Irr B 4HCh 1 w/JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B

Unit 7 -
3 x Nobles Irr B 2HCh 1 w/ JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B 2 LI B

Unit 8 -
3 x Nobles Irr B 2HCh 1 w/ JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B 2 LI B

Unit 9 -
4 x Spearmen Reg B LMI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT

Unit 10 -
4 x Spearmen Reg B LMI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT

Unit 11 -
4 x Spearmen Reg B LMI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT

Unit 12 -
4 x Bowmen Reg B LMI B

Unit 13 -
4 x Bowmen Reg B LMI B

Unit 14 -
6 x Archers Reg C LI B

Unit 15 -
6 x Archers Reg C LI B

Unit 16 -
4 x Archers Reg C LI B

Unit 17 -
2 x Archers Reg C LI B

Unit 18 -
2 x Archers Reg C LI B

Unit 19 -
12 x Militia Irr D MI B

Unit 20 -
12 x Militia Irr D MI B


Tallying that up:

    * 1600 points
    * 20 scouting points
    * 20 units
    * 2 generals
    * 236 bows
    * 22 chariots
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:27 am    Post subject:

Very good morale for most of the army, also, at affordable costs.

The main problem, as you've acknowledged, being to get stuck in and grind out your results...rather than dancing around or engaging in extended shooting exchanges.

Not sure you have the very 'best' chariot army given 2-3 of the choices in Biblical Warrior...but you are right up there.
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