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Cold Wars 2017 Results and AAR
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Cold Wars 2017 Results and AAR

MINI

1) Dan Woyke, Sea Peoples, 12
2) Greg Hauser, Ghaznavid, 11
3) Sean Scott, Mycenaean Greek, 11
4) Rob Turnball, Early Dynastic Sumerian, 10
5) Frank Gilson, Boran Norse Irish, 10
6) Todd Kaeser, Tepanec, 10
7) Matt Kollmer, Zulu, 9
8) Don Carter, New Kingdom Egyptian, 8
9) Mike Mallamaci, Sassanid, 7
10) Phil Gardocki, Anglo-Irish, 7
11) Larry Daum, Anatolian States, 6
12) Rich Kroupa, Neo-Babylonian, 3
13) Tom Barkus, Comagene, 3
14) Chris Schulitz, Golden Horde, 3
15) Scott Holder, Akkadian/Later Sumerian, 2
16) Bill Low, Neo-Hittite, 1
17) Fred Stratton, Neo-Babylonian, 1
18) Jevon Garrett, HYWE, 1

I didn't use the spreadsheet so did tie-breakers the old fashioned way (opponent's record)

Doubles

1) Dave Markowitz and Ben Markowitz, Early Polish, 14
2) Rob Turnball and 1/3 Scott Holder, Kanem-Bornu, 13
3) Bill Low and Frank Gilson, Spanish Conquistador, 12
4) Todd Kaeser and 1/3 Scott Holder, Tepanec, 11
5) Marc Cribbs and Jim Bisigani, Early Saxon, 10
6) Fred Stratton and Mike Mallamaci, Nikephorian Byzantine, 9
7) Chris Schulitz and Greg Hauser, Yuan Dynasty China, 8
8) Sean Scott and Jevon Garrett, HYWE, 7
9) Dan Woyke and Matt Kollmer, Later Ottoman Turk, 7
10) Rich Kroupa and Alex Kroupa, Kushan, 5
11) Don Carter and Phil Gardocki, Anglo-Irish, 5
12) Scott McDonald and Mike Kelly, Later Ottoman Turk, 3

Sportsman: Tom Barkus. Other nominees: Greg Hauser, Todd Kaeser

Best Camp: Matt Kollmer (Zulu)

More in a separate post down thread.

scott

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scott holder
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject:

My experience:

934 miles home in 13 hours. No murders occurred along the route unlike last year.

I played five(!) games over the weekend so was very happy. Rich Kroupa and I played our Mini Bronze Age armies Thursday night. That always helps shake off the rust for me. I then played two Mini games on Friday, one vs Matt and his Zulus, the second vs Larry and his Anatolian States. Jevon wanted to play *a* Mini game on Friday and Matt said he'd fill in as needed. As a result, the three of us played in the first round, the two of them skipped Round 2, then me and Jevon skipped Round 3. I didn't try to get cute with scoring in terms of combining our lines, instead just left us with the scores we had. That's why Jevon came in last. Actually, Matt was kicking himself because if he'd played all three rounds, he could have been a CONTENDUH!

What was great was that we had 9 Bronze Age lists. I then cut the pairings into "Open" and "Bronze Age". Because of the odd number, that meant somebody in either unofficial bracket would play outside it. Thus, in Round 1, me and Matt played. In Round 2, Rob played Frank and in Round 3, Bill played Tom. Going into Round 3, there was the possibility that we'd have two people go 5-5-5 and not meet, one in each "bracket". If that had happened, I would have simply declared two winners given the great turnout. Instead, everything shook out so that we had one raw points winner and that was good enough for me. Plus, it's great to see Sea Peoples atop the leader board.

I had a wonderful game against Larry, Akkadian vs Anatolian States. I lost 5-0 but it didn't feel like it. Yeah, it's happened before but in those cases the game is over in 2 hours and I'm left wondering afterwards "wtf just happened?" because I'm run over and around before I know it. In this case, it was an example of setting up your attacks like you want them but then not executing. He had a 8E block of MI LTS, Sh guys that one of my 12E barbarian blocks slammed into on Bound 2. I had follow up units ready, etc. Couldn't budge the damn things, couldn't catch the crap I wanted to one one flank and on the other his "Western Warriors" (aka Sea Peoples) did what barbarian blocks are supposed to do against close order foot. We start counting up points and I'm like "sheesh, I didn't shake or kill anything." Regardless, playing Bronze Age games like that are a sheer joy.

Something very interesting was Sean's use of Mycenaean spearmen. He used them in the pike, pavise configuration and did quite well with them. He succumbed to Dan's Sea Peoples in Round 3 which is historically appropriate but he showed that within period that approach can be made to work. To be honest, I didn't think it possible to the point of perhaps going back and re-examining our list approach. Now I don't have to.

We had 11 Teams so I asked for volunteers to split and nominally play singles. Rob and Todd agreed and I said I'd formally play a round with each of them, thus played with Rob in Round 1 and Todd in Round 3, hence the "1/3 Scott Holder" reference in the results. I haven't played Doubles much over the years, the last time was 2 years ago with Bill running Tepanecs. Bill and I don't mesh well as partners, he's much more methodical than I am and with an army like Tepanecs, I was ill-suited all around. Heh heh, definitely not the case with Rob. Some of the time I had to calm him down. With Todd, we actually meshed really well running those same Tepanecs. In neither case was I the "here's something small for Scott. Go over in that corner and do no harm with your troops."

A big call out goes to Marc and Jim for running Early Saxons, that's right, early Saxons. They played me and Rob running one of Bill's AW lists which was their only loss. They flank marched 768 pts because they were on the side of the board with the Major Water Feature in their rear zone so didn't have enough depth to setup their front line in shieldwall while having the "meh" troops behind. Thus, they flank marched that mob. We had a great battle as their FM arrived on Bound 2, pushing back our miniscule 2E LC unit that was FMing on that side. They went on to win their next two games with, again, Early Saxons.

I only had two rules issues that warrant additional work.

scott

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Last edited by scott holder on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for the write-up, Scott. it's encouraging to see such a strong turnout and such a diverse collection of armies. Looking forward to seeing everyone at Historicon this summer.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:16 am    Post subject: Mini

Bill Low graciously makes it vastly easier to attend these events in so many ways, not least of which being the ready availability of so many armies on loan.

In the mini I decided to try out:
1) Barbarian rules for foot blobs
2) Shieldwall
3) 2HCW AND JLS on the same troops

That basically means Irish loose order foot.

Many are the choices...actually...but I wanted a handful of other things such as some armor and flexible morale (A/B/C/D).

So I chose Boran Norse-Irish as follows:
CinC PA 2E Irr A LHI/LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh/JLS
Sub similar
3 units of 5E Irr B LHI(2)/LMI(3) 2HCW,JLS,Sh(2)/JLS(3) (loose order have to have a 3rd rank in order to use shieldwall)
4 units of 9E Irr D(1 C) LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh(4)/JLS(5)
2 units of 2E Irr B LHI 2HCW,JLS,Sh (Ostmen)
4 units of 4E Irr C LI JLS,Sh
4 Irr C LI JLS,Sh/JLS

This had great table frontage and a solid combination of all the tactical capabilities I wanted to exploit.

Round 1 was vs. Phil Gardocki's Anglo-Irish. This was complicated by his Bombard unit and 12E Reg D MI LB,Sh/LB stakes.

The battle basically came down to my + die roll and his - die roll when Barbarian horde blobs of very similar composition smashed into one another near the center. His vaporized and while mine where eventually killed, he failed a key waver with some Galloglaich which I then routed.

I also managed to trap a Galloglaich unit of his against dense terrain and attack it, routing it, with LI JLS,Sh coming impetuously against his flank.

I won a 5 point victory...what didn't work so well? my guys under shieldwall trying to 'walk' up to contact with the longbowmen...they never got there.

Also, I don't have much practice deploying this type of army and could have put troops in somewhat better places.

Next, round 2...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:57 am    Post subject: Round 2 Mini

My second round opponent was Rob Turnball with Early Dynastic Sumerian...Chariot version.

This basically sucks for me...why? Well, the chariots all cause unease, and I more or less have to live in shieldwall...and still lose and get ground out. Possibly I could 'second strike' chariot units with my small reserve...but...

Anyway, on bound 2 Rob lines up various attacks and sends them in...first major combat is his CinC charging one of my shieldwalls.

+2, -5 for Rob...hmm...+3 for me...dead CinC, Army standard goes down, 3 wavers for all his nearby units, 2 for those out to 240, and 1 test for units out at 480 for the lost standard.

Couple of routs in there...more tests...and his commands are retreating off the table.

So...I did nothing...and the dice gods frowned on Rob. He was a great sport about it, but that's not really how you want a battle to go...I would have enjoyed a long fight with him grinding out my sheildwalls and my trying to counter-strike.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Round 3 Mini

My round 3 opponent in the Mini is Greg Hauser with Ghaznavid. Ghaz works well on 1200 points...I won a mini a while back with it.

Greg has 4 units of lancers and 3 of elephants, one solid LHI unit and various lights (LI, LC).

I know I'll be outscouted and have to set up first...there's a woods I can anchor my left hand flank with. I send the have shieldless LI unit on a flank march my right to make any flank march he sends show up with a bound's prediction so I can redploy something to deal with it...but my LI never shows up and he has no flank march.

I set up my line and have my reserve and wait...because I can't really attack across the entire table against his army.

Perhaps I should have tried, anyway...but I thought he'd set up a solid attack against me, somewhere, and I'd counter-attack and see what happened.

Instead Greg didn't like the math of slamming into shieldwalls and grinding it out and moved mounted back...and forth...and back...and forth...attacking a couple of units on the last turn, routing one...1-0 for Greg.

I had no initiative in this game...

Next, wrap up thoughts
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Boran Norse Irish Mini Wrap-Up

Would I play this army, or something very similar, again?

No...

For all the synergy and attacking capability...you often end up setting up first, have to do so in a reactive manner, and shieldwall is soooo slowwww.

Frank
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Doubles, Spanish Conquistador

Bill Low was gracious enough to team up with me...and I had some interesting tactical thinking I wanted to explore with MesoAmerican foot.

Typically we find LMI LTS,S,Sh...that's a lot of good, shielded shooting...but even with circulating combatants they don't fight heads up that well (unless the support shot from the Sling really matters) AND a player has a tendency (necessity) to hang out and sling away to soften up the enemy, which takes a couple of bounds out of the game.

What if you had similar guys who fought better and had to fight melees to get results? You'd be forced to get into hth and see what happened.

Thus, take LTS,JLS,Sh guys up front...and small 2E 2HCT,JLS,Sh guys behind (who can replace through)...and slam them into the enemy.

We took Spanish Conq in order to have some HK...but honestly the HK never did a single thing...my fault really (deployment and target selection).

Battle 1 was against Kroupa Kushan. We deployed between and around two Sand Dunes and waited for all the LC/EHC/SHC/Elephants and camels to come on down.

They did...the camels charged our LTS,B,Sh Tlaxcallan Reg C guys...who both promptly failed their wavers and routed...that command lost 5 of 11 units.

Elsewhere we did rout several mounted units that came in, including a general...causing some wavers.

3-2 winning draw for us. I had a unit fight that shouldn't have which also failed a waver for incoming mounted...if not we would have had a 5-2. My bad. Still, the 'must fight' plus circulation worked out...but in this matchup Slingers would have been better given we were fighting primarily armored mounted.


Battle 2 was fought versus Yuan Mongol. I despaired of having to walk forward into all those guns.

So, I deployed all of our 4E Reg LMI units force marched, 1E deep. Bill thought this was insane.

We then contracted away from the guns and fought things we could reach, such as one Korean MI unit that failed a counter. We routed that, shook a gun and killed a nearby EHC unit.

Elsewhere, Chris Schulitz got a Case 2 flank charge into one of our units...but took +3 die roll support shooting from a LI unit and just 'stuck' there...and was routed, causing a detachment of LC to rout and some wavers on Reg D Koreans...

5-1 Us. The bold plan worked. Here the LTS,JLS,Sh guys were able to fight and kill Koreans...where LTS,S,Sh would not have been.

Round 3 was fought against the Nikephoran Byzantines of Mallamaci and Stratton.

Ugh, we can't fight Varangians very easily (but better than LTS,S,Sh) nor can we fight big blocks of Kontaratoi...so we deploy in a defensive formation and try to work through a gully around a flank (took too long).

Our 4-2 victory came when Mike sent a Sub charging into a Reg C LTS,B,Sh Tlax unit on our extreme left hoping to shake it. Instead Mike's Sub is killed causing a lot of wavers...several D and C class LC fail...and a later charge against shaken LC causes another shake and that Nik command goes under retreat.

Still, the Varangians eventually do make contact and rout a couple of our units.

Here JLS gave us at least the illusion of being able to do some fighting against the Varangians. Wink

Overall I think this is a viable way to run MesoAmericans as a must-fight-now-everywhere army.

Frank
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject:

Frank, finishing 5th in an 18 person field with Boran Norse Irish is impressive. But I agree that's probably about the high water mark for what these guys can achieve. An interesting experiment, but not a long term viable army.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject:

Thanks Frank for your Norse Irish list, I added it to my Battle Report.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject:

One rules follow up and man am I embarrassed.

I was frequently asked about chariots with foot detachments in the rear and how they moved for approach precedence. I said "mounted" but had a nagging suspicion I was wrong. Nothing in the rules but I knew this had come up in the Forum before. Did a quick search but was rushed, didn't find it.

Found it:

http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=74666#74666

In fact, Rob had asked about this somewhat recently and I'd pointed him to that post. Sigh.

scott

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Cold wars AAR

Firstly thanks again to Bill Low for the army:
I played list one Sumerian in the mini, and had a blast. First game I fought Sea peoples - Dan ran them well and they are very tough. In the end though my big chariot foot blocks destroyed his center and he ended up losing 791 points to my 300 or so - his barbarians did what barbarians are supposed to do, but once pinned my chariots ate him alive. Different dice could have changed this. Game two was against Fran running Boran Irish, I set up all my charges, and the best was my CinC against a unit of shield wall, 2hcw, jls, sh - I charged him flat footed - proceded to roll down 4 and he rolled up 3 - which is what he needed for a catastrophe - my army wilted - eager sub had to take 3 wavers - but 2 was eneough for him to leave along with 80% of the army - which then went into retreat - 0-5 loss - but army handled well. Third game was a revenge match against Don Carter - with Egyptian, and unfortunately for Don the previous round was made up for by everything rolling with the odds - 5-1 or 5-0 to me - Fun fun tournament - silly side note, we had someone fight to two 0-0 ties one of which included 8 units fighting for two bounds with no winners anywhere - guess they did not take enough chariots - thanks for suggesting Scott loved the mini theme
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject:

Thanks guys!
Love it.the AAR.....
EK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject:

Ed logged into the Form and perused the listings. He was happy to see that Scott listed the results of CW. He smiled and quickly clicked on the link. It popped up and there the lists appeared. Hmmmm..... Danny won the Mini.... Good work Dan.... WOW 18 guys played.... GREAT...... Oh MattK played the Zulus.... Didn't know that. They did very well..... Looks like a good army. My kind of army... Masses of warrior foot..... WHAT IS THIS...... Jevon, Fred and BillL.... came in with 1(one) point.... Can't be. This guys are gods of the game. They get a point just for showing up.. Well they are REALLY nice guys ..... maybe they just let the other guys feel better.... They wanted to boost the other guys image......
He looks down and sees the double.... Ahhh... this should be fun. See how the mega teams did......
WHAT...... WHAT......NO...... IT CAN'T BE......HOW COULD THOSE TRULY EXPERIENCED PLAYERS FALL FOR THE TRAP............. EVERYONE KNOWS THE FIRST RULE OF GAMING...........HOW COULD IT HAPPEN........THE RULE IS CLEAR.
RULE:NEVER PLAY AGAINST A YOUNG PLAYER .
the second rule is just as well known....
RULE TWO: NEVER ROLL DICE AGAINST A KID......

Love it.. Go Ben. Very Happy
I faced him at Council of 5N .... I knew the rule and lost graciously..... I knew I had no chance.... It was a great game......My Feudal Germans under Otto v their Scott commons.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:45 pm    Post subject: Zulu list?

Matt, would you mind posting your Zulu list? I'm curious to see what you thought of the list and how you arranged the troops.

Thanks
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