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Historicon 2017 Results and AAR
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject:

Thanks, Scott. I had forgotten the bodyguard on many of Rob's chariots - yeah, that scared me. He had very few (minimum) spearmen - really didn't look like a Sumerian from where I sat, unlike your list. His HCh never got into combat except for the isolated unit on my far left, though. And yes, only 2 LMI blobs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject:

For amusement: looking back at the notes I made on lists as I was going through the decision process, my entire comment on Akkadian is "OK but not special." Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject:

One of the very few bits of math I did for this was to look at Sea Peoples (or Anatolians, same difference) vs LTS spearmen. It's a rout on contact if the LHI/LMI are in 3 ranks or deeper. That right there was enough to dissuade me from Sumerian Smile. I didn't think about using it as a vehicle for a chariot-based strike force.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: AAR - final, Saturday

NICT - 3: Greg Hauser, Ghaznavid. Friday evening was just great, on to Saturday. There are three of us at 10, I believe: Derek Downs, Bill Low, and I. It turns out that my three Saturday games will include both of them and also Greg, who starts the day at 8.

Elephants are a key weakness for my army. They ignore stakes, of which I have a few (never deployed in any other game; only once deployed here to inhibit a joint El/Dailami attack). They kill both SHK and SHI, and LB is not the best missile against them - plus, Greg's are IrrB and likely able to pass a waver if needed. So I somewhat psyche myself out here, and deploy defensively on a small frontage with ditches. Then I see how small Greg's army is and realise that I outnumber it, and I rapidly switch to plan B. That's aided by one of Greg's subgenerals being unreliable and going onto Wait orders - so on the right, I jump over my own ditches and try to press an attack. That flank, Greg's left, is basically held only by a 9E unit of LC; I am able to shoot it up and then second-disorder it to shaken, it will eventually rout when charged by K but no-one will care. Next along is the hill holding Greg's artillery, protected on their left by 2 2-El units and a 2E Indian MC unit. Extending that line towards the middle are two Dailami units, then more EL and LI, and then on Greg's right (which I have refused) is the major strike force of El and cav. It's a very small army. Outscouted again, my ditches are in the wrong place: they would have been useful as a defense on the left but instead they're along the front of my centre-right deployment and only serve to irritate my own K.

Having pushed back the LC, I am able to get a good shot at the El unit on Greg's left: he then rolls a 1 on his waver to permit a charge. That changes the tenor of the game considerably. To save the El, he charges a 6E LB, Sh block with his 2E Indian MC unit; I roll down in support but he still doesn't do 1 CPF and is now almost an auto-rout the following turn. A second El unit comes into the flank of that LB block, which has passed both waver checks for being charged - good job, boys! - and at game end, the shaken El pass their waver for the MC and LC routs. In the middle, over several tight and intricate turns, I get three SHK charges off at Dailami without being shot in prep: no failed wavers, good shooting from the Dailami, no good combat dice, and nothing works. If we had to complete the battle, that area of the field is looking decidedly dodgy for me. The first one I break off from and am able to protect the breaking-off K unit but only at the cost of eventually putting an LHI unit into charge range of some El; I fail that waver but I think that I must have passed a second for being pushed back - that's the combat where I took time to deploy stakes. And on my left, I shoot a 3-El unit for 3 cpf but that one passes their waver and charges - happily my D-class LB pass their own waver and evade. When the charging El recall rather than become semi-isolated, that's the end of real action on the flank: there is a wood anchoring my line and my SHK are happy to invite opposing HC to come into the restricted confines between wood and baseline, but they choose not to play. Greg is swarming over the central hill and multiple evades by my LI and LMI are causing a slight traffic jam, but we're at game end: 3-1 to me, and both some regrets (not being more aggressive in deployment on my right, messing up the ditches, not being able to kill any Dailami) and some gratitude (passing my wavers, having Greg fail one with his El).

NICT - 4: Derek Downs, NKE. I believe that Bill and Derek had an inconclusive game, so this is now top table and I'm leading the pack but not by much. Of all the times that I have faced Derek, I am feeling most sanguine about this one: my SHK are essentially invulnerable to his army, I have a strategy to fight on a small frontage, and his army is full of targets. So I'm not exactly confident - how many times has he won the NICT? - but if I had to pick, I'd pick my side.

Almost everything goes to plan. Derek's single command means that I get some flexibility in designing matchups, the wagon laager works as intended to prevent incoming bowfire. The large amount of terrain - in particular, as Mark noted, the preponderance of hills that are steep only in multiple small parts - makes combining the SHK and LB units a little tricky, but after deployment things continue to look good. Even my flank march, of a 2E LI unit, works well and comes on early behind Derek's left flank to prevent him making recalls there. Derek's big push is to send his two guard units at the wagon laager; they do eventually make it there, but I can easily evade the one charge they are able to make. Meanwhile I am on the receiving end of small potshots along the line, but nothing too silly dice-wise. On my right, where I have chosen to fight, almost everything continues to plan: my SHK kill a chariot unit that's protecting some LMI, and the mass of K in one spot (6 of my 7 units) force Derek into a continual attempt to make multiple counters, some of which inevitably fail. I end up crushing this flank: 5 or 6 routed units, 5 or 6 more shaken, a total of 11 units albeit not enough to put anything on retreat. My forces from that flank are swinging round to advance on the centre, where both Derek and I fail critical counters in the final turn - me to get an LHI block back into skirmish, then Derek to try to take advantage of that failure and charge his Guard at it. Two or three more units to get the NKE on retreat, and I am basically opposed only by shaken D-class units, but the game is ended. Only two negatives. The first is early, the first act of the battle on my right, and could have made the whole battle tilt: I am able to charge SHK impetuously downhill into a 4E LMI JLS, B, Sh unit. He passes waver - Reg B, not surprising. But then he rolls +3 in support shooting. 16 @ -1 is fine. 16@2 not so much. I'm disordered and shellshocked, he's now fighting HK, and that's eventually a routing unit. Fortunately, no-one cares and I am able to persist - but not how I planned to start. The second negative is the most irritating event of the weekend to me. Penultimate bound, Derek charges some chariots at skirmishing LHI on the centre-right; they fail their check. No big deal, I should maybe have prevented it, but there was a bit of risk attached to doing so. They have evaded, as planned, between a fresh LB unit and my one SHK unit on the flank; there's only slightly more than a 1E gap to evade through and they're now behind friendly units on both sides, so no problem. Or so I think. I don't bother to move the K forward, despite the absence of threat - why risk a +3 shot, even long-range? At charges on the final turn, though, Derek declares a charge through the 'gap' - and the scare quotes are because Scott rules that there is no gap applying and it's a legal charge. Even looking back now, I don't see how that was a possible ruling. I'm sure that y'all's hearts are full of sympathy Razz. They fail a second waver and an adjacent D-class LB unit fails their for the rout. That takes a 3-1 or 4-1 win back to a 2-2: I have 11 enemy units routed or shaken, Derek has 3, but mine cost (a lot!) more. Roughly 250 each at countup. Of such things are titles lost.

In comparatively good news, though, other tables have also had indecisive results, so that going into the final round I am still on top table against Bill Low... but it's all very tight. To give away the punchline, Derek will get a big win, allowing him to leapfrog Bill and I. Ditto Rich Kroupa, who beats Seleucid with Kushan. And most importantly, ditto Todd Kaeser, who started the day on only 4 points but has the third big win in a row to jump over everyone and grab the title - kudos, Todd. It truly made me happier for you to win than it would have to win myself. Just to wrap up the AAR, though...

NICT - 5: Bill Low, Tepanec. This is the second game of the day where my plan A went out of the window early on. In this case, though, so did plan B. I deploy first; central, wagon laager angled back to my left and anchored on a large hill there. Bill's first command is the vast majority of his army, and it's set up almost all directly opposite the small section of frontage on my right I had planned to push on; it looks as though he'll be able to claim the hill there with sufficient force that I will not have luck contesting it. In contrast, his centre and right are very lightly held. So, I deploy my two smaller commands rather differently than planned, and aim to delay in front of that main force while crushing the centre and left. In particular, I (again!) ignore my own defenses and deploy my second command as far forward as possible on the left, a shift from all other games. My third command is unreliable and goes to Wait; on bound 3 it *again* goes to Wait... and then the game is over. The big thing about this game is that we only play three bounds. Bound 1 is quite busy - see below - and Bill acknowledges that he is taking considerable time over every move; very clearly no attempt to deliberately delay, but the net effect is that we can't reach a decisive result...and that's the second, final blow to my title hopes. Plan B works as far as it goes: I am killing or scattering LI on my left, I take the central hill, I shake an LMI block when Bill decides that it needs to retreat, and by bound 3 I have just burst through the only loose order unit remaining on Bill's centre or right - his IrrC Otomi - with SHK, follow-up units poised and his camp not far from the bursting-through knights (which would have had an especially big impact, because two of Bill's three commands are single-unit!) That combat never completes, I never get to charge the shaken unit in the rear, and the actual points gathered by the push are fairly small at count-up. The reason that plan B is also abandoned is that on bound 1, Bill makes either an error or a very cunning lure as he advances his big push. Specifically, he advances a 4E Reg A LTS, S, Sh unit and adjacent on the table-centre side, a 4E Reg C unit skirmishing in column. However, the advance has placed them within about 280p of my CinC, who is thus able to approach and charge such that when the Reg C evade, he will hit the shieldless flank of the Reg A unit. That's basically an auto-rout (5 @ 10, with a Reg B general meaning it can at worst go to 5@9 which is still 48 on a 16-man unit), but it does mean sending Richard off into the midst of the opposing army; his support forces are limited by my deployment for plan B and by Wait orders for some of them. Still... if there is a rash of waver failures, it could also be game over. OK, I go for it. As a bonus, the Reg C fail their waver; they will then fail again when shot in the rear by following-up LHI. That LHI unit is one of two that are the only follow-up troops in the CinC's command. OK: one shaken unit, a routing spear block, and one further failed waver by an adjacent C-class 4E unit. Unsurprisingly, both lurking Otomi units pass their wavers and charge in to the flank of pursuing SHK.

Because of the direction of charge, the routing block is moving along the front of Bill's other 4E LMI units. The newly-shaken C-class unit is next in line, followed by two more A-class units to the table edge. There's a large gap to go through towards my side of the table, so unless I can do something, there will be no burstthroughs even though I've created a fairly serious logjam on Bill's side. OK, so: I charge the flank of the routing unit with my second follow-up LHI unit. That means that the routers will (in my mind) either have to rout away from this new charge or split the angle between the two opponents in their rear and flank; they are surrounded on all sides other than about half of the 1E frontage of their unit. Either of those two rout directions would (i) have swept away the shaken C-class unit, causing more wavers, and (ii) allowed the pursuing LHI a converted charge into now-disordered spearmen. Instead I get the second 'gap' ruling with which I disagree - granted, not in the same league of disagreement as the one against Derek - and the rout avoids the shaken unit entirely. I do get to *hit* that unit as a converted charge - that melee will occur on bound 3. Meanwhile the CinC counters and I peel off the second Otomi unit with the LB that had previously shot-and-routed that first C-class block: I roll down in prep but he rolls down in combat and so I am winning - he recoils tired and disordered in front of me. The shaken unit loses, gee surprise, but passes their waver test. And the stationary Otomi fighting my CinC roll +5 and rout him. No-one cares (phew!) - I lie: a 2E Reg D LI unit cares - but he's more than 200 points all by himself. And at game end, bound 3, Bill's CinC intercepts that first C-class block to return them to shaken. The net result of which is that I get the second game in a row where I am happy with both plan(s) and execution, but lose 1 or 2 high-cost units which prevents a clear win, and don't have time to get to a conclusion. It's just very hard to push fast enough to pin down a skirmishing and retreating enemy in 3 bounds! Killing my CinC and recovering the routed C-class unit to shaken gets Bill back from probably a 4-0 to a 2-2. I suspect there's a taint of sour grapes to my reporting of those last two games - if so, apologies. The high points of the weekend far outweighed those minor lows.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:
Mark Stone asked me at the Saturday night “hang” about what I was hoping to accomplish with this approach. I waxed philosophical for a bit, the only thing he agreed with was the visual display reasoning but I had one thought later that will resonate with Mark if not with the rest of you. Mark talked Thursday night about how race directors for trail ultramarathons (in case some of you don’t know it, both Mark and I run ultramarathons) have this tendency to want to put their specific “imprint” on their race. The same applies here. It’s possible that after next year I might want to open up the tables for a year just to see what people decide to bring. But for next year, expect the Saturday tables to be cluttered and prep accordingly.


Let's stick with this "race director" analogy a bit. Having had some time to reflect on things, I think I've identified the source of tension, to the extent that there is any. I think it isn't so much the amount of terrain that unsettles the players as the variance. And the variance is only an issue because with 9 tables and 3 rounds on Saturday, a table that is markedly at one extreme or the other is not going to be visited by everyone. Given that this is our championship tournament, I think there's an implicit expectation that every table will be some "Boston Qualifier" standard when it comes to terrain so that there is a sense of fairness about who ended up playing on which tables.

If I were to recommend anything, it would be a very slight modification of current Saturday approach. Something like think of the tables in 3 groups:
* Group 1 has N pieces of terrain;
* Group 2 has N+2 pieces of terrain;
* Group 3 has N+4 pieces of terrain.

Then it isn't that hard to make an effort to see that each player (or at least each player who's in contention come Round 3 Saturday night) gets one game on a table from each group.

More generally: with great power comes great responsibility. The flip side of that coin, which is applicable in our case, is that with even modest power comes some responsibility. We trust you, Scott, to be a responsible steward of this little hobby in which we have invested so much. And I want to be clear that in 30+ years you have always rewarded that trust. I'm sure that will still be true a decade or more hence.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:02 am    Post subject: Thanks for the stories!

Just a quick note to thank all the posters (whether here or on their blogs) who offered their in depth AARs. It's great reading, and they offer a high level perspective so different from the view "in the trenches." I stand in awe of your ability to remember so much detail - this skill must go hand in hand with your Warrior prowess! -- The other Bill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject:

All these are GREAT!!!!.
However, I have to reread them since my mind is still flooding with thoughts of Todd winning the NICT....
My mind races.....how will I address him.... his Highness....his Excellence..... his Most .......mostess.......
Should I genuflect as I kiss his ring.......
decisions.....decisions.......

Hey what is this..... MarkS and ScottH are ultra marathoners ... I used to run marathons......never would make the ultra.....
But my already high estimation of you two, has just raised higher. And ScottH. you do not have a "grumpy" side Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Ewan McNay wrote:
One of the very few bits of math I did for this was to look at Sea Peoples (or Anatolians, same difference) vs LTS spearmen. It's a rout on contact if the LHI/LMI are in 3 ranks or deeper. That right there was enough to dissuade me from Sumerian Smile. I didn't think about using it as a vehicle for a chariot-based strike force.


Rob and I were aware of that and took similar, and different, approaches to the problem. The primary difference was in list selection. He went minimal Spearmen with #1 as a way around the issue you raise. I went with #10 because I could plop a rear rank of bowmen onto the unit, meaning the 9-12E mass of barbarians would always need to roll up to break them. That unit had the added benefit of being in the lead in order to draw fire should I face one of the hyper-firing armies. Moreover, at first glance it seemed like I had too many such Spear/Bow units but they also served as great blocking units on the flanks. I never had to worry about flanking (although Jevon's brilliant use of the otherwise craptastic MI B block as a flank march caught one such unit).

The primary similarity was our use of the LCh/HCh/LMI pods. With those, the goal was to always prevent opposing 9-12E LMI hordes from even contacting the Spearmen. We would win or lose the battle using anything but the Spearmen and I think we both did a respectable job putting that plan into action.

This conversation is a rarity for me because I normally refrain from the power-gaming-with-power-armies discussion that typifies threads like this one. I really get into taking a "nothing special" army in a theme that has some other appeal (which can be historical or simply the figures, etc) and see how I can "make it work".

scott

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: NCT learnings?

Looking at the NCT lists...and thinking about long term trends in Warrior...do we have some conclusions?

1) Don't run close order foot...unless they have bows. Pikemen, Spearmen, etc., do not cut it. They catch nothing, and merely inefficiently cause the opponent to go elsewhere...unless said opponent can kill them, in which case they are just points waiting to be harvested.

2) Don't run irregular loose foot. Barbarian rules, Irr A, multiple weapons, don't matter.

3) Do run quality regular loose order foot. MesoAmericans, Longbowmen, etc.

4) Dense shooting is still...quite good.

5) The time of elephants also appears to be past.

Thoughts?

Frank
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: NCT learnings?

Frank Gilson wrote:
Looking at the NCT lists...and thinking about long term trends in Warrior...do we have some conclusions?

1) Don't run close order foot...unless they have bows. Pikemen, Spearmen, etc., do not cut it. They catch nothing, and merely inefficiently cause the opponent to go elsewhere...unless said opponent can kill them, in which case they are just points waiting to be harvested.

2) Don't run irregular loose foot. Barbarian rules, Irr A, multiple weapons, don't matter.

3) Do run quality regular loose order foot. MesoAmericans, Longbowmen, etc.

4) Dense shooting is still...quite good.

5) The time of elephants also appears to be past.

Thoughts?

Frank


Agree about close order foot and irregular loose order foot. I don't think you can say the time of elephants is past when we had an army that featured elephants prominently finish in 2nd place.

And yes, if you're looking to minmax the Warrior point system, shooting is the place to start. That said, we would all hate a perfectly balanced point system, even if such a thing were possible.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject:

Hey Frank, since you did the list submission review this year, can you post the lists that were played in the NICT? I'd be happy to review them, and I'm sure we could cajole Ewan into sbujecting them to his unvarnished assessment.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: o.k.

Alright...I will save Scott from having to do that Wink...although it will take me some time to sort through all the emails for the correct final versions.

Frank
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Lists now up

NCT lists now up at:
http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17633&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: The Number of Beast

I posted this in the section marked AAR's and Battlereports, but no-one came looking at it, so I am re-posting here.

The Number of Beast, a Warrior Battlereport

Round three of the Warrior NICT tournament during at Historicon

Its Seleucid vs. the Anglo-Irish

https://philonancients.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-number-of-beast.html

Enjoy

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject:

Ok - here goes my AAR in parts from the NICT. Pictures will be uploaded sometime in next few weeks by me on the Album section.

I've obviously played Tepanec (or Aztec) forever but I was just finally able to field a 25mm army that was mine for the first time after painting them last summer (thanks for all the help Bill Low!!!!!). I've just always loved the army since the days of Adam Weitz running them in Danny's basement vs. my Asiatic Early Successor back in 6th ed in 1986...

While the army has great strength in shooting, circulating combat, and decent morale it is an all foot army with limited scouting (set up 1st) and often has to react/counterpunch vs. attack. It has it's moments of "C" grade troops that often have to be heroic to win battles and some mandatory troops that often have to "hide". I run it differently than Bill (see lists published by Frank on forum). I prefer to take up as much space as possible with quality shooting vs. combat - I have 8 main units of LTS,S,Sh and another of LTS,D,Sh. I like the idea of rolling lots of shooting dice - even dice are fine for delivering enough shooting, but the occasional ups is what makes the army successful. If I'm shooting with 8 or more units each turn then the likelihood of rolling that fateful up 2 happens more often. I don't run 2HCT in my line troops instead relying on my use of LTS. I have 4 units of lights and they have the roll of grabbing/holding/delaying. I don't want too many of them as I want the dense shooting of my line to do the work and not LI - so often they find themselves on the flanks running from LC. The Otomi are there to be anti-elephant units (where I screwed this up vs. Greg) and if I'm winning they are good cheerleaders following up the advance but if I'm losing them can be very vital to pulling said defeat out of the fire.

I also came into this year (as I have in the past few) with the idea that I want to enjoy playing WARRIOR. I try to tell my opponent that this game can be taking place in my basement. I would rather play a slower, fun game then a tense one where the minutia of the game is weighing me down. Life is too short to be a turd in gaming. I wanted to enjoy playing with my own army and looking forward to the "Red Wine Gang" hangout after the day is done.

Game 1 - Jevon and Elamite.

The board has a fair amount of brush (Jevon picks the most for his side to avoid me from having it) but I have a large on on my right flank and a rocky hill to the left of my center. I know I'll be fighting in the gap and place my highest morale units there but there is also a "C" unit in a vital spot but such is commands at times. I place the Ireg C otomi unit on the rocky hill away from all the chariots. Jevon places his 3 units of 3 HCh in the middle and tells me this is where the fighting will be. He also has units of 2 HCh with runners behind and I know they can be deadly vs. me. I am hoping to pass the vital waivers and not become ground beef vs. chariot. I know Jevon has to be wary of the shooting as well so it will be a careful set up game by both to gain an advantage.


His HCh can skirmish and it is awfully hard to do 2 cpf, never-mind 3 cpf to them despite having sling. We exchange a few rounds and the fateful up roll happens disordering a center chariot unit and forcing a recall and rally. This forces Jevon to charge where I have an overlap. Waivers are passed by the A/B troops and the chariot units are routed but waivers are passed by Jevon's troops (as his high morale troops should in the middle). However, it is the end of the battle and no commands are in broken so it is a 3-1 victory. Another turn is where the "5" would have taken place but we played 5 turns and that happens. A very enjoyable game and I am happy to see Jevon back playing regularly with us again AND healthy!


Round 2 - Greg Hauser, Ghaznavid.

Greg and I went well over a decade without playing against each other, but now we seem to play each other every tournament. It is great because Greg is an excellent player and in good spirits as well, but I have lost more than my fair share against him recently and I HATE those stone-throwers! His armies also also so beautiful to look at (as a fellow painter). They look beautiful and Greg handles them better than anyone in the game; I am just tired of eating rocks and rolling waivers b/c of them.

Terrain is the board with all the hills with variable rocky edges to them. Greg picks the busy side, leaving me with less to work with. I "anchor" between two of them on my right side/center. Looking back I played too defensive and that is, what I believe, cost me the game in the end. I know I will struggle vs. the elephants with pike - sure I can shoot him for 2 cpf and he will waiver and pass and then come in and push me back and so forth. Greg also has a 4 elephant unit which is worrisome and the LHI Daylami unit is also very effective vs. me. Having no where to put the Ireg C Otomi I send in on a flank march to the right. It will come on in turn 2.... and despite a valiant effort vs. a 2 elephant unit is will become toe-jam.

Greg handles his elephants/Daylami well and I do not put the Otomi where they need to be. He passes the waiver when shot for 2 with the elephants vs. an Eagle knight unit. I roll down in the shooting/combat and don't do 3 cpf to him. He pushes me back and even with the circulating combat he pushes me back again (he's not disordered) and I eventually rout which carries away my center with the Daylami and another elephant unit as well. 1-5 loss. I'm sure it was more complicated than that, but I was off and it was over quickly.

So, I'm at 4 points after day 1 (as Ewan pointed out I would have been cut in past years, but we are a smaller pool and everyone gets to stay in). I also know that people have come back after a 5 point first day to win it in the past as well. I'm actually not worried about any of that at this point and said to all that would listen that I was going to enjoy umping the theme and enjoy playing my army on day 2 on the NICT without any stress. I painted my army, I love how it handles and I'm intent on enjoying my time with it on the table.


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