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2017 NICT Lists
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewan McNay HYWE

Frank Gilson wrote:
Ewan McNay's Hundred Years War English

2 CinC Reg B SHK L, Sh/HK L PA 170 33 101.5 203 203
2 Sub Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L P 100 33 66.5 133 133
2 Sub Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L P 100 33 66.5 133 133
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103


881

6 Reg D LMI LB, Sh/LB 12 8 10 60 10 70
6 Reg D LMI LB, Sh/LB 12 8 10 60 10 70
6 Reg C LMI LB, Sh/LB 16 12 14 84 10 94
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
2 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 36 10 46
6 IrrC LI S, Sh 6 6 6 36 25 61
2 Reg D LI LB 4 4 4 8 10 18
2 Reg D LI LB 4 4 4 8 10 18
7E unemplaced stakes 14
719
Scouting: 5 1600


There are a few options when playing 100YWE, and Ewan's take on the list is nearly perfect (though not quite).

The big constraint when playing this army is the lack of scouting points. You are pretty much always going to be outscouted, and pretty much always counter-punching from your rear zone as your opponent bears down on you.

In practice this is not as much a disadvantage as it might seem. The longbowmen give you a very reasonable option for operating in bad terrain, so you care less about getting stuck on a cluttered side of the table. Since the army is so homogeneous, you really don't care how your opponent sets up, and since you have plenty of shock mounted you don't have the same risk of being set back on your heels that an all foot army like one of the Meso-Americans has. The lack of frontage coverage is mitigated, as Ewan amply demonstrated, by the ability to take ditch or wagon laager. The frontage coverage is also stiffened by the selective use of stakes.

A less obvious advantage of 100YWE is how incredibly points efficient it is. With the foot, no one has to have a shield, but you can get shields for the ranks that need them. No one has to be LHI, but you can upgrade selectively where you want to. The knights are super points efficient as SHK L,Sh in front and HK L in the back, a combination that is also nicely set up for dismounting.

One choice in the list is whether or not to take the Brigans. Yes, they are irreg C which is awkward and can be brittle, but starting as LMI JLS with options to be MI, or HI, or 2HCW, or 2HCT, and have shields, you get a lot of flexibility in how to buy them. One big block of these guys suitably armed gives you something you can confidently push forward into either pikes or elephants, assuming you keep them supported and keep your CinC handy to get them going impetuously.

Dave and Frank always took a Brigan unit when playing these guys at Cold Wars. Ewan does not (I wouldn't either), but it is an option to consider.

The other option to consider is to take some Irr B SHK. These guys serve two purposes. First, they are mounted that can easily go impetuous without needing a general. Second, they can still charge impetuously when dismounted. That gives you an important option against pike, particularly against 16 figure pike blocks in column. If you aren't going to take a Brigan unit then I think you really have to take the Irr B SHK so that you have at least one place that you can aggressively respond to pike with impunity.

That's really my one quibble with Ewan's composition of the list. This is definitely an "A list" army, very dangerous in the hands of its capable commander.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
We might think, at some point, about using something other than an early 2000s discussion board system.


"We" are not thinking about any such change thankyouverymuch.

Why? I have no interest in doing the work. More importantly, any move requires moving the extant posts. That's non-negotiable. I spent thousands of dollars if I charged a regular IT Guy rate getting the godawful yahoo group posts migrated into this system. I'm not going thru that again.

The issue is that I have "List Lore" buried. I have no intent on moving it "above the fold" but it's easy enough to move it higher up the list of sub-forums.

scott

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewan McNay HYWE

Mark Stone wrote:
Frank Gilson wrote:
Ewan McNay's Hundred Years War English

2 CinC Reg B SHK L, Sh/HK L PA 170 33 101.5 203 203
2 Sub Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L P 100 33 66.5 133 133
2 Sub Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L P 100 33 66.5 133 133
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103
2 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L 60 33 46.5 93 10 103


881

6 Reg D LMI LB, Sh/LB 12 8 10 60 10 70
6 Reg D LMI LB, Sh/LB 12 8 10 60 10 70
6 Reg C LMI LB, Sh/LB 16 12 14 84 10 94
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
4 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 72 10 82
2 Reg C LHI 2HCW, LB/LMI LB 24 12 18 36 10 46
6 IrrC LI S, Sh 6 6 6 36 25 61
2 Reg D LI LB 4 4 4 8 10 18
2 Reg D LI LB 4 4 4 8 10 18
7E unemplaced stakes 14
719
Scouting: 5 1600


There are a few options when playing 100YWE, and Ewan's take on the list is nearly perfect (though not quite).

The big constraint when playing this army is the lack of scouting points. You are pretty much always going to be outscouted, and pretty much always counter-punching from your rear zone as your opponent bears down on you.

In practice this is not as much a disadvantage as it might seem. The longbowmen give you a very reasonable option for operating in bad terrain, so you care less about getting stuck on a cluttered side of the table. Since the army is so homogeneous, you really don't care how your opponent sets up, and since you have plenty of shock mounted you don't have the same risk of being set back on your heels that an all foot army like one of the Meso-Americans has. The lack of frontage coverage is mitigated, as Ewan amply demonstrated, by the ability to take ditch or wagon laager. The frontage coverage is also stiffened by the selective use of stakes.

A less obvious advantage of 100YWE is how incredibly points efficient it is. With the foot, no one has to have a shield, but you can get shields for the ranks that need them. No one has to be LHI, but you can upgrade selectively where you want to. The knights are super points efficient as SHK L,Sh in front and HK L in the back, a combination that is also nicely set up for dismounting.

One choice in the list is whether or not to take the Brigans. Yes, they are irreg C which is awkward and can be brittle, but starting as LMI JLS with options to be MI, or HI, or 2HCW, or 2HCT, and have shields, you get a lot of flexibility in how to buy them. One big block of these guys suitably armed gives you something you can confidently push forward into either pikes or elephants, assuming you keep them supported and keep your CinC handy to get them going impetuously.

Dave and Frank always took a Brigan unit when playing these guys at Cold Wars. Ewan does not (I wouldn't either), but it is an option to consider.

The other option to consider is to take some Irr B SHK. These guys serve two purposes. First, they are mounted that can easily go impetuous without needing a general. Second, they can still charge impetuously when dismounted. That gives you an important option against pike, particularly against 16 figure pike blocks in column. If you aren't going to take a Brigan unit then I think you really have to take the Irr B SHK so that you have at least one place that you can aggressively respond to pike with impunity.

That's really my one quibble with Ewan's composition of the list. This is definitely an "A list" army, very dangerous in the hands of its capable commander.


What I consider Ewan's purity of focus here is to go 'screw it, I'll be outscouted' and not take the 4E of available LC...which aren't very good...in some attempt to avoid that.

He's even going to be doubled in scouting by some MesoAmerican lists! He's fine with it and it frees him to rely on losing table side choice and having to place commands first.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Greg Hauser Ghaznavid

Frank Gilson wrote:
Greg Hauser's Ghaznavids

CinC 1 EL IrrB Crew PA B,P,Jls Dr 127
Grey Rock Ghulams 2 Irr B HC L,B,Sh 85
Naked Elephants 3 El IrrB Crew P,B,Jls DR 169
Indian Cav 1 EHC L,Sh 1 MC L,Sh all Elephant proof cav 79
Red Rock Ghulams 2 Irr B HC L,B,Sh 85
Indian Irr D LI 10 LI B 45
590

Blue Sub Gen 2 EL IrrB Crew PA B,P,Jls Dr 115
Blanket Elephants 2 El IrrB Crew P,B,Jls DR 121
Blue Daylami 4 REG B LHI LTS,B,SH 138
Indian Cav 1 EHC L,Sh 1 MC L,Sh all Elephant proof cav 79
LC 9 IRR C LC B 97
550
Yellow Sub 2 EL IrrB Crew PA B,P,Jls Dr 115
Red Daylami 4 Reg B LHI LTS ,B,Sh 138
Turk Arab LI Irr C 7 LI 1/2 B,Sh 1/2 B 59
Purple Arab LI Irr C 7 LI 1/2 B,Sh 1/2 B 59
Stone throwers 4 Reg C crew Oxen 90 461
1601


Because of the combination of pike-armed and Irr B crew, consensus is that Ghaznavid offers the best elephants in the game. Personally, I would prefer the Burmese elephants, but I recognize I'm in the minority. Regardless, the quality and quantity of elephants is the big selling point of this list. Everything else on the list is designed to either protect the elephants from harm, or clear harassment out of the way so that the elephants can do their job.

So let's talk about the virtues of the list other than the elephants. You get some cheap but useful shielded light infantry, and more than enough lancers to back them up so that they cannot easily be run over. You get the Daylami, who work well in tandem with the elephants. The Daylami can charge together with the elephants, which will occasionally be handy. They can also charge off or shoot off enemy light troops making it more difficult for an opponent to use light troops to screen off the elephants. Also, the Daylami give you a semblance of brush troops, though they won't be much help in a woods.

The artillery is interesting. I would not take it myself, but I've seen Greg use it effectively. Note that Greg takes the CinC as a single staff element, so the CinC can attach to the artillery and direct fire. This creates a pretty wide circle in which the opponent has to be careful about small units that can prove vulnerable to artillery (SHK, small Otomi units, for example).

To my mind, however, the negatives of the Ghaznavid list are significant.

Here's the biggest problem: who are you going to put on the front line? Both the lancers and the elephants want to be behind the line, so that they aren't immediately vulnerable to shooting, waiting to move forward and exploit a suitable opportunity. But if you take that approach, you simply don't hold enough frontage. You have 3 LI units and 1 LC that occupy 21 elements' frontage, which you can stretch to maybe 32 elements' coverage with reasonable spacing between these units. You have 2 Daylami units, which can give you another 8 elements' coverage if you don't mind their flanks hanging in the breeze a bit. That's the requisite 40 elements' frontage, but only if you stretch super thin. This has its own risks, since a highly maneuverable and/or mobile army (think Derek's NKE) can swarm and concentrate on an area of this thin line faster than the elephants and cav can necessarily respond to. Also, this thin line has its own vulnerability to shooting in the form of one LC unit and one shieldless LI unit. If these get shot off the line the frontage coverage deteriorates quickly, and a flank gets exposed, or elephants are no longer shielded from enemy missile fire.

So the key has to be striking quickly and aggressively, and being willing to take waver tests with the elephants when they receive 2 CPF from prep shooting, so you can retain forward momentum rather than grinding to a halt.

The further problem, and it is related to the lack of frontage coverage, is that this is an army that is both expensive and inefficient in points. The EHC units are expensive given that they aren't very good. The HC unit is also a lot of points for a unit that can play only a limited supporting role. And the Daylami, having to be LHI and shielded throughout, end up being a pretty expensive proposition. Finally, Greg's choice to put the CinC in a single staff element relegates 127 precious points to a non-combat role. And if you don't use the CinC that way, then the 90 points for the stone throwers start to look more like wasted points since they now have to just follow shooting priorities.

That Greg has had as much success as he has with this army in recent years is a testament to how much Greg has improved the quality of his play over the years. He's now on the list of players I face with some trepidation.

Also, and this is applicable to Todd's Tepanecs as well, this is an example of a player comfortable with a certain playing style who has, over the years, refined an army to be tailored to that style. Ghaznavid really suits Greg, and Greg handles the army about as well as anyone. So you really have to look at the whole picture: not just the quality of the army, not just the capability of the player, but also the fit between player and army. This is a case where the whole is much more than the sum of its parts.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Jake Kovel Early Polish

Frank Gilson wrote:
Jake Kovel's Early Polish

1 2x LC, JLS, B, SH 2x LC, B Irr C 69 CinC
2 6x LI, S, SH Irr C 61 CinC
3 2x EHK, L, SH Irr B 190 CinC*
4 3x LMI, 2HCW, SH 3x LMI, JLS, SH Irr C 79 CinC
5 3x LMI, 2HCW, SH 3x LMI, JLS, SH Irr C 79 CinC
6 3x HI, 2HCT, B, SH 3x MI, JLS, B, SH Irr C 157 CinC
7 3x HI, 2HCT, B, SH 3x MI, JLS, B, SH Irr C 157 CinC
8 6x LC, JLS, B, SH Irr B 121 Sub
9 6x LC, JLS, B, SH Irr B 121 Sub
10 3x LC, JLS, B, SH 3x LC, B Irr C 91 Sub
11 2x EHK, L, SH Irr B 115 Sub
12 2x EHK, L, SH Irr B 115 Sub
13 2x EHK, L, SH Irr B 115 Sub
14 2x EHK, L, SH Irr B 130 Sub*
1600

* = the general's unit


I tried Early Polish two years ago in the NICT, and did not like the experience. Having an army that is entirely irregular is awkward. Making counters is harder. Being able to do anything useful once you've made your counter is hard. Prompt points can sometimes become an issue.

Jake does one thing here that I wish I'd done in retrospect, and that's to take the Lithuanians as JLS,B,Sh instead of L,JLS,Sh. I wanted some LC that could fight rank and a half, but in practice getting into skirmish with these guys was just too difficult, with the end result that they were too vulnerable to shooting. The overall versatility of JLS,B,Sh is worth the tradeoff in hitting power.

Otherwise, not much to like here. The list can get SHK, so going with all EHK seems like an unnecessary downgrade. Go with mixed SHK/EHK units.

The 2HCT,B guys look ominous, particularly to enemy elephants, but in actuality they're just guys waiting to die. Regular LMI with B or LB can walk up to them in skirmish and the 2HCT guys don't dare return fire because they'll take an immediate waver from thaking 2CPF in prep. If they hold their shields up they're just pinned waiting for the opposing shooters to roll up and again inflict a waver test. And there are plenty of melee troops that should just walk right over these guys (dismounted SHK, my Shang heavy chariots, the Elamite heavy chariots, Hypaspists charging from outside 80p, Kushan SHC....).

The LMI 2HCW backed by JLS guys are even worse. You have to take something like them because only half your foot can have bow, and you want the 2HCT guys to have bow. But at least take them as all JLS,Sh so they can skirmish and have some chance of getting out of harm's way. With a front rank of 2HCW these guys are really waiting for the first mediocre shock unit to shout "Boo!" at them, and they'll immediately crumble.

Finally, 2 element units of irregular LC are just too expensive. Your command points to element points ratio is terrible for these guys. Better to take them as an 8 figure unit and split up the slingers into 3 units of 8 figures. The slingers can hold their frontage more durably than the LC can.

I know this list is a favorite of Jake's, and he seems to have done middling well with it this year. Another testament to a player knowing his own playing style, the armies that fit it, and benefiting from years of honing that army in that style.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Dan Woyke Lodi Indian

Frank Gilson wrote:
Dan Woyke's Lodi Dynasty Indians

2 **Irr B EL JLS,2B 1HG/PA 133 54 93.5 187 0 187
3 *Irr B EL JLS,2B 1HG/P 73 54 63.5 190.5 0 190.5
3 Irr B EL JLS,2B 1HG 54 54 54 162 25 187
564.5
2 Irr B HC L,B,Sh * 33 33 66 25 91
4 Irr C MC L,B,Sh 21 21 84 25 109
200
4 Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B * 16 10 13 52 25 77
4 Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B * 16 10 13 52 25 77
154
4 Irr B LMI JLS,SH 12 12 48 25 73
6 Irr C MI LTS,JLS,SH 16 16 96 25 121
8 Irr C LI B SH/B 6 4 5 40 25 65
259
Rajput
2 *Irr A EHC/HC L,B,Sh * 108 36 72 144 144
2 Irr A EHC/HC L,B,Sh * 42 36 39 78 25 103
2 Irr A EHC/HC L,B,Sh * 42 36 39 78 25 103
350
6 Irr D LI B 2 2 12 25 37
6 Irr D LI B 2 2 12 25 37
74
Scouting: 46
* Elephant Proof 1601.5


Lodi is one of those fascinating lists that I return to a lot trying to figure out how best to run it, and if there really is a viable way to put it together.

The main problem (Kushan has a similar problem) is that there isn't an easy way to coordinate an attack by the lancers with an attack by the elephants. It helps that you can elephant proof the cavalry (Kushan has this virtue also), but the fact that these troop types cannot charge together is awkward.

This is further complicated by the Rajputs being Irreg A. On the one hand, this is a good thing. Every cavalry unit in the game, including knights, should feel a little trepidation about being charged by Irreg A EHC. Quite a few foot types should be nervous about this prospect as well. On the other hand, it's very hard to control when Irreg As will charge. This makes coordination with the elephants more difficult.

The elephants have their virtues. They are numerous, and they are Irreg B. Those factors alone make the list worth serious consideration. But they have neither the pike of Alexandrian era elephants, nor the horde of archer crew of Burmese elephants, making them somewhat second class citizens as shock troops.

And that's another problem here. Against a tough defensive foe (pike or LTS,B or LTS,S or 2HCT,S) you are either leading with the elephants and hoping for an up roll or leading with the Rajputs and hoping for an up roll. Do this in enough places and you will get some up rolls, but then you also have to survive the consequences of the numerous places in which you roll down.

The light troops are numerous, but not very good. The LC can't fight rank and a half, and the LI is mostly D class and mostly without shields. The abundance of light troops means you can quickly swarm and pin your opponent, but the light troops lack durability. Therefore you have to strike quickly with your shock troops before your lights are driven back and/or shot up.

This is also a challenging army to play in a world of terrain dense tables. Dan takes one LMI unit which is enough to hold a piece of terrain for a bit or even drive back some enemy LI, but the army has no other ability to operate in terrain.

Bottom line: I don't think this configuration solves the mystery of how best to run Lodi. On the up side, this version is configured to pretty mcuh guarantee a lot of high scoring games. In our scoring system that's probably a good thing.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Sean Scott Italian Condotta

Frank Gilson wrote:
Sean Scott's Condottiere

1 2E RegA/B SHK L Sh CinC PA 232
2 2E Reg B SHK L Sh Sub P 160
3 2E Reg B SHK L Sh 130
4 6E Reg A/B LHI/LMI P/THCT 192 Swiss Ally
5 6E Reg A/B LHI/LMI P/THCT 134 Swiss
6 6E Reg A/B LHI/LMI P/THCT 134 Swiss
7 2E Reg B LI HG 26 Swiss
8 2E Reg B LI HG 26 Swiss
9 2E Reg C LC XB 34
10 2E Reg C LC XB 34
11 2E Reg C LC XB 34
12 6E Reg D LMI XB 58
13 6E Reg D LMI XB 58
14 4E Reg C LHI XB Sh 0.5 THCT 122
15 4E Reg C LHI XB Sh 0.5 THCT 122
16 4E Reg C LHI XB 0.5 THCT 106
1602


It is a common occurrence in Warrior that if you want to play a particular exciting troop type, it is often best played as an ally contingent on some other list rather than on its native list. This is true of Vikings (play Varangians on a Byzantine list), Burmese elephants (play Ming or Khmer), and Mongols (play any number of lists from Wallachian to Koryo Korean -- just not Mongol).

And so it is here. The main reason people play Italian Condotta is to play the Swiss. And make no mistake -- Sean is building a Swiss delivery list here. There are only 3 SHK on this list, and everything else non-Swiss is some form of skirmishing, terrain and frontage holding unit. All to clear a path to shove the Swiss down your throat.

There are several problems with this theory. First, this army doesn't hold very much frontage. The only light troops are 5 units of 4 figures each. The 2 LI units will be held back with the Swiss, and the 3 light cav units just don't do very much. They are easily shot up and have no ability to run down enemy light troops. So the real frontage coverage will be done by 5 loose order foot units, two of which are shiedless LMI.

The bottom line: the flanks on this army are highly vulnerable to collapse, giving the Swiss little time to drive home their attack.

This leads to other problems. First, the Swiss are not that hard to avoid. Given that the army overall has little ability to chase down and eliminate light troops, you can simply have your skirmishers fade back in front of the Swiss while you nibble away at the Italian flanks.

Second, the Swiss are quite vulnerable to dense shooting. In a single element wide column a Swiss pike block counts as a 16 figure unit. You only need 16 figures rolling +1 to disorder such a pike block in prep shooting, rendering it harmless and vulnerable. That's a 16 figure LI unit properly lined up, or a skirmishing 16 figure loose order bow unit with some helper figures thrown in at long range from another unit. Not that difficult to achieve.

I know how much Sean loves his Italians, and I've watched him refine his approach over the years. He's certainly gotten better, and had a pretty solid showing this time around at Historicon. But this is probably the high water mark for a low performing list. There has to be a better way to run the Swiss, and there have to be better Italian Condotta configurations (perhaps without the Swiss) than this one.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rob Turnbull Seleucid

Frank Gilson wrote:
Rob Turnbull's Seleucids

Seluecus
2E Reg A EHC/HC L Companions 154
Sub 
2E Reg A EHC/HC L Companions 104
Settlers
2E Reg C EHC/HC 64
Pk
8E Reg C 1/4 HI PK, sh 154
Pk 
8E Reg C 1/4 HI PK, sh 154
Agyraspids
8E Reg B 1/4 HI PK, sh 186
Elephants
3 Irr C, 1 Pk, 1 jls, 145
Elephants
3 Irr C, 1 Pk, 1 jls 145
Elephants
2 Irr C, 1 Pk, 1 jls 105
Peltasts
4E Reg C , 1/2 LHI Lts, Jls, sh 106
Peltasts
4E Reg C , 1/2 LHI Lts, Jls, sh 106
LI
12E Irr D LI, b 49
Tarantines
2E Reg C LC, jls, sh 42
Tarantines
2E Reg C LC, jls, sh 42
Tarantines
2E Reg C LC, jls, sh 42
1598


Robert runs the pike-elephant steamroller attack about as well as anybody in our hobby, having taken that approach all the way to the NICT title. This version departs somewhat from his usual take on the Seleucids, and I'm not sure it's an improvement.

First, let me comment on a recurring debate: Seleucids or Alexandrian Imperial? Which is the better list?

Alexandrian Imperial has the Hypaspists, and overall a better and more abundant mix of LI and LC. Those are certainly significant positives. But Seleucid can get EHC instead of HC, and gets 8 pike-armed elephants instead of just 4. To me, that tips the balance in favor of Seleucids. For all their nifty rules the HC Companians are still just too vulnerable as shieldless HC to be used in any but the most carefully selected reserve roles. EHC is sturdy enough in the face of shooting, and better in enough HtH situations, to play a more active role. Still a supporting role, but an active one. And that makes a big difference.

There's a concscious choice on this version to focus on the foot attack. All the pike have HI, and the peltasts have been up-armoed to LHI in the front. The battle plan is clear: drive those guys home on a broad front as fast as possible, supported by a combination of elephants and EHC. Minimal LI and LC play a screening / delaying role on the flanks.

The problem is those core 5 units -- the three pike and the two pelts -- don't hold very much frontage. with 2 element gaps between them that's 2 (pelt) + 2 (gap) + 4 (pike) + 2 (gap) + 4 (pike) + 2 (gap) + 4 (pike) + 2 (gap) + 2 (pelt) = 24 of the 40 elements' table width. On terrain dense tables this can maybe be okay. You cut down some frontage anchoring against a terrain feature, and hope you screen of lights isn't pushed back too quickly.

The other problem is that pikes remain slow. Starting from 120p back from the center line, assuming they approach or charge 80p every bound, it will take them 7 bounds to reach the enemy rear zone, longer to reach the enemy table edge. Most games are over in less than 7 bounds. So the opponent who prefers to fade away from your pikes and nibble at your flanks can certainly do so.

Finally, 32 figure pike blocks are something of a solved problem at this point. Byzantine Varangians + SHC can take them down, as can a combination of mounted and dismounted SHK, as can Ghaznavid elephants.... But a lot depends on matchups. For example, I have nothing in my Shang army that wants to take on pike frontally, so I'm glad I didn't have to fight Robert this time around.

The other version of Robert's that I remember involves more light cav and scythed chariots. That's a much stronger version, in my opinion, as it creates a super-aggressive pod (EHC + LC + scythed chariots) that quickly generates and empty space into which pikes and pelts may follow and exploit opportunities. That means dropping the armor on many of the pikemen, and maybe taking only one peltast unit, to get the points, but it still strikes me as a more effective combination overall.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject:

With regards to the last 2 posts I'll weigh in a bit.

Sean's Condottas are certainly his love and he has run them in a multitude of configurations. I agree with Mark that the lack of shields in the LMI CB make them vulnerable and the LHI CB 1/2 2HCT are also not as tough as one would hope. I'd have to play around with the list a bit, but it is fragile especially vs shooting. I do commend Sean for running his love.

We do know that E. Burgundian is another way to run the Swiss with a little better support.

I too would not have wanted to face Robert's Seleucid army - He runs it very well and pike cannot be stopped/slowed by anything in the Tepanec army anymore. I agree with Mark that there may not be a need of the HI in the pikes as there are not usually another pike army out there to face these days and the extra points could get some other choices. I DO NOT like the scythed chariots. In my opinion they slow a game down as most opponents can dance around them and that wastes 2ish turns in the game before they die and come off the board and now allowing you to push pike/elephant. Some games go only 4-5 turns and Seleucid needs more to push the pike to a conclusion.

Great stuff Mark - keep it up

Todd

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Mark Stone Shang

Frank Gilson wrote:
Mark Stone's Shang Chinese

1 2 x Irr B 4HCh/LCh 1 w/JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B (CinC) 143
2 2 x Irr B 4HCh/LCh 1 w/JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B (Subgen) 83
3 4 x Irr B 4/2LCh 1 w/LTS,B 101
4 4 x Irr B 4/2LCh 1 w/LTS,B 101
5 2 x Irr B 4/2LCh 1 w/LTS,B 63
6 2 x Irr B 4HCh 1 w/JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B 81
7 3 x Irr B 2HCh 1 w/ JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B 2 LI B 133
8 3 x Irr B 2HCh 1 w/ JLS,B 1 w/LTS,B 2 LI B 133
9 4 x Reg B LMI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT 98
10 4 x Reg B LMI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT 98
11 4 x Reg B LMI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT 98
12 4 x Reg B LMI B 74
13 4 x Reg B LMI B 74
14 12 x Irr D MI B 73
15 12 x Irr D MI B 73
16 6 x Reg C LI B 46
17 6 x Reg C LI B 46
18 4 x Reg C LI B 34
19 2 x Reg C LI B 22
20 2 x Reg C LI B 22
1596


Everything I have to say on this list is here:
http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17606
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Seluicid

So I tend to agree that the pike is not needed against other pike, but for a few points it destroys other lts foot, and is much better against barbarian trash - my other army of choice is Kanem Borno - but lets assume any of the LTS armed foot above:
MI 24@4- 72 back 16@4 48 push - if HI 16@3 32 - rout on contact - thats a turn at least - LMI similarly beats aztec etc, - the game I lost big was against Rich - he rolled 3-4 up 3 up 4 in two turns - el vs el up 4 - I rout on contact Pk covering rolls up2 vs elephan at LTs - both charging (I was in throw stuff in mode) I roll up 2 he rolls up 4 and up 3 I believe - rout again - and army goes- nothing one can do given I picked a face to face fight - which is my norm- he played it well I did not, and against Ewan - He played well - I played badly - took a 50/50 waver test failed and game over - because he out deployed and shot me
The troops needed a better general not better troops - not my best effort with Seluicid
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Jamie White Zulu

Frank Gilson wrote:
Jamie White's Zulus

1 CinC 2 RA/RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 145 CinC
2 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
3 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
4 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
5 2 RB LMI ½ 2HCW JLS Sh 54 CinC
6 2 RB LMI ½ 2HCW JLS Sh 54 CinC
7 6 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 154 CinC
8 6 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 154 CinC
9 4 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 106 CinC
10 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
11 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
12 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 58 CinC
13 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 58 CinC
14 Sub 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 92 Sub
15 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 58 Sub
16 6 RC LMI JLS Sh 106 Sub
17 6 RC LMI JLS Sh 106 Sub
18 2 RC LMI JLS Sh 42 Sub
19 2 RC LMI JLS Sh 42 Sub
20 2 RC LMI JLS Sh 42 Sub
1601


I fought Jamie's Zulus, and while I can't say that I particularly feared them I also wasn't quite sure what to do with them. By list rule these guys can evade in any situation, and always take a -2 in prep shooting. Essentially, it's as if they are always in skirmish without having to actually assume skirmish formation.

And Jamie has wisely bough a large number of units here, even if some of the units are small. That makes it easier for him to hold frontage, and also creates numerous possible matchups where one of his units may pin down one of yours in hand to hand combat, and even if his unit isn't winning, you have overlaps and flanks that can now be charged into by his more numerous guys. Further, there's the morale class puzzle for opponents similar to what we see with Meso-American armies. Yes, there are a few C class troops here, but they will likely be in terrain or behind the lines, and pretty much everything that's exposed is A or B class. Counting on a cascading series of failed waver tests is not necessarily a good plan when facing this army.

Having said that, HTW -- especially regular HTW -- is vulnerable to most mounted troops. You'll have to absorb some javelin fire as you want to get to 40p away (remember -- he doesn't have to skirmish in order to evade), but any mounted at least as good as impetuous EHC lancers should be solid enough in hand to hand and durable enough in the face of said javelin fire. So screen off the troops you don't want to fight -- without mounted of their own the Zulu have to way to chase you down -- and concentrate your mounted on the Zulu units you do want to run down.

Of course it's never quite that simple. Terrain placement may make it difficult to come to grips with these guys without exposing a flank to Zulu safely ensconced in terrain, and these guys are some of the best terrain troops out there. If you're playing a pike and/or elephant army then you have a different problem, because your best troops are at best brittle in the face of the Zulu. So a lot comes down to matchups and terrain. But any well-played solid mounted army should be able to take on the Zulu without a lot to fear.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Jamie White Zulu

Mark Stone wrote:
Frank Gilson wrote:
Jamie White's Zulus

1 CinC 2 RA/RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 145 CinC
2 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
3 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
4 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
5 2 RB LMI ½ 2HCW JLS Sh 54 CinC
6 2 RB LMI ½ 2HCW JLS Sh 54 CinC
7 6 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 154 CinC
8 6 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 154 CinC
9 4 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 106 CinC
10 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
11 2 RA LMI HTW JLS Sh 66 CinC
12 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 58 CinC
13 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 58 CinC
14 Sub 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 92 Sub
15 2 RB LMI HTW JLS Sh 58 Sub
16 6 RC LMI JLS Sh 106 Sub
17 6 RC LMI JLS Sh 106 Sub
18 2 RC LMI JLS Sh 42 Sub
19 2 RC LMI JLS Sh 42 Sub
20 2 RC LMI JLS Sh 42 Sub
1601


I fought Jamie's Zulus, and while I can't say that I particularly feared them I also wasn't quite sure what to do with them. By list rule these guys can evade in any situation, and always take a -2 in prep shooting. Essentially, it's as if they are always in skirmish without having to actually assume skirmish formation.

And Jamie has wisely bough a large number of units here, even if some of the units are small. That makes it easier for him to hold frontage, and also creates numerous possible matchups where one of his units may pin down one of yours in hand to hand combat, and even if his unit isn't winning, you have overlaps and flanks that can now be charged into by his more numerous guys. Further, there's the morale class puzzle for opponents similar to what we see with Meso-American armies. Yes, there are a few C class troops here, but they will likely be in terrain or behind the lines, and pretty much everything that's exposed is A or B class. Counting on a cascading series of failed waver tests is not necessarily a good plan when facing this army.

Having said that, HTW -- especially regular HTW -- is vulnerable to most mounted troops. You'll have to absorb some javelin fire as you want to get to 40p away (remember -- he doesn't have to skirmish in order to evade), but any mounted at least as good as impetuous EHC lancers should be solid enough in hand to hand and durable enough in the face of said javelin fire. So screen off the troops you don't want to fight -- without mounted of their own the Zulu have to way to chase you down -- and concentrate your mounted on the Zulu units you do want to run down.

Of course it's never quite that simple. Terrain placement may make it difficult to come to grips with these guys without exposing a flank to Zulu safely ensconced in terrain, and these guys are some of the best terrain troops out there. If you're playing a pike and/or elephant army then you have a different problem, because your best troops are at best brittle in the face of the Zulu. So a lot comes down to matchups and terrain. But any well-played solid mounted army should be able to take on the Zulu without a lot to fear.


Jamie also has NO scouting points on this version of Zulu. So, if you have even half a scouting point you have 3x what he does...so he will always be giving up table side choice and likely deploying commands before his opponents.

Luckily he has a uniform army that doesn't require much special deployment effort...and he can force march some units to enable the others to march on bound 1...but...just swap some Reg C LMI JLS,Sh for a LI unit or two and he's at least not outscouted embarrassingly by MesoAmericans or HYWE or other folks with no LC.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Zulu

I played Jamie - nice army but I dont fear him - and just pick on his high morale but sparse wing and rout it - 5:1- but tough opponent an darmy - juts not manouverable enough - I love (normally) facing any all foot army - but this is one of the few games in nationals I played really well - sorry Jamie
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Phil Gardocki Anglo-Irish

Frank Gilson wrote:
Phil Gardocki's Anglo-Irish

1 2 Irreg, B, 1/2 HK, 1/2 HC L, SH, PA 164
2 2 Irreg, B, 1/2 HK, 1/2 HC L, SH, P 129
3 2 Irreg, B, 1/2 HK, 1/2 HC L, SH 85
4 2 Irreg, B, 1/2 HK, 1/2 HC L, SH 85
5 8 Irreg, B, 1/2 HI,1/2 MI, 2HCW, JLS, D 217
6 8 Irreg, B, 1/2 HI,1/2 MI, 2HCW, JLS, D 217
7 4 Reg, D, 1/2 HI, LB, SH, 1/2 MI LB, stakes 70
8 4 Reg, D, 1/2 HI, LB, SH, 1/2 MI LB, stakes 70
9 4 Reg, D, 1/2 HI, LB, SH, 1/2 MI LB, stakes 70
10 6 Irreg C, 1/2 LI, S, SH, 1/2 Jls, Sh 61
11 6 Irreg C, 1/2 LI, S, SH, 1/2 Jls, Sh 61
12 12 Irreg C, 1/3 LMI, JLS, 2HCW, SH, 2/3 LMI, JLS, SH 145
13 4 Irreg C, LC, JLS, Sh 73
14 2 Reg C Bombard, crew of 4 90
15 8 Irreg C, LI, B, 1/2 Sh 65
1602


A perfect example of a list to play because you love the army, not because it's a great army. Anglo-Irish can certainly be fun. When the Galloglaich get on a roll against something they do a lot of damage, and it can be exciting to be on the roller coaster ride of whether your Bonnachts are going to roll up big or roll down big.

Still, this army has a lot of weak spots. You get some shock cavalry, but it's not very good, and can really only play a supporting role. You don't cover much frontage, and even on that frontage your HtH combat outcomes will vary widely. The Galloglaich are slow, and dart is not much of a missile weapon to extend their reach. Overall you're highly vulnerable to good "pin and punch" tactics by your opponent - in other words its easy to screen the parts of Anglo-Irish you don't want to fight, and gang up on the parts you do want to fight.

If you are going to play this list, I'd tweak a few things from how Phil takes it here. I don't think the bombards serve much purpose. They help a little bit with cutting down the frontage you have to cover -- enemies won't just casually wander in front of bombards. But they are another immobile target that can be ganged up on, and they are vulnerable to enemy shooting. Nor would I take the longbowmen as close order. In this configuration the only unit other than LI that can operate in bad terrain is the Bonnachts, and they will lose the terrain fight to many other troops. I suppose the rationale if that this way the longbowmen don't have to take an uneasy waver if charged by elephants, but without 2HCW they aren't going to do much to stop elephants anyway. Since Phil opts to pay for stakes here, close order is even more of a problem because the longbowmen can't easily place stakes and then, if necessary move across them. No, better to have the increased mobility and faster movement of loose order longbowmen, and use your maneuverability to keep elephants and the like at a distance. Also, probably best to arm these guys with 2HCW as well. It's already a compact army counting on the fighting quality of its troops. Make the longbowmen as good as they can be in that role. I think at least some of them can be C class? That would be a useful upgrade. And points for all this and a bit more in the way of light troops can be had by cashing in the bombards.
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