Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

Considering the fact that the English transitioned to a mixture of armored billmen and LB troops after the 100YW, how can this be reflected on WARRIOR battlefield? The tournament lists and comments I've read about on these forums seem to focus on how best to arm blocks of LB rather than resort to what the English actually did to solve the problem. (Wars of the Roses Lists) Can LB and 2HCT retinue units be used together effectively or should I stick with the 1415 model if I want to win?

[Mark Stone]

I like the War of the Roses list, actually. In the 100YW period the longbowmen often end up doing double duty as both shooters and hand to hand troops. There's a certain efficiency to this -- more function out of fewer figures -- but it also means the aren't optimized for either function:
(1) Shooters want to be cheap, so they can be plentiful. Remember, D class troops shoot just as effectively as A class troops. So in the 100YW period you inevitably end up with some number of longbowmen who are upgraded in morale, and often up-armored to LHI. That greater expense doesn't really help your shooting effectiveness.
(2) You buy a lot of longbowmen with 2HCW, which is an okay but not great hand to hand weapon. These guys are useful when fighting behind stakes, when exploiting an exposed flank, or when hitting an overlap of troops that are already tired and/or disordered from shooting or a knight charge. That's all fine, but very much secondary hand to hand operations. These guys are going to go busting down the door against anybody of note.

By contrast, War of the Roses creates a potentially useful separation of concerns. You can get an abundance of D class longbowmen, who do one and only one thing well: they shoot. You must take a small number of 2HCT guys, and that small number is just about right. HI 2HCT is a legitimate threat to much of the infantry in the game, and is reasonably sturdy against a lot of the mounted, particularly given that enemy mounted will have to get through a hale of longbow fire to reach these guys. Yes, you can accomplish many of the same hand to hand tactics with dismounted knights, but dismounting is hard to orchestrate and telegraphs your move. It's arguably better to have a handful of dedicated hand to hand fighters who do that one thing, and do it well.

Others here will have a different take, and arguably the most optimized longbow list is in fact Early Burgundian (D class shooters, AND mix them with CB, AND take a Swiss contingent for devastating hand to hand foot troops). But I think that War of the Roses is an overlooked list with its own unique potential.

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

Check out my list and give me some feedback please.

War of the Roses English

CinC w/Men-at-arms Reg B SHK, L, Sh 170
Sub-General w/men-at-arms Reg B SHL, L, Sh 100
2E Curor rear-rank for above Reg B HC, L 54 2 SP
2E Men-at-arms Reg B ½ SHK, L, Sh, ½ HC, L 97 1 SP
2E Men-at-arms Reg B ½ SHK, L, Sh, ½ HC, L 97 1 SP
2E Retinue Billmen Reg C EHI/HI, 2HCT 66
2E Retinue Billmen Reg C EHI/HI, 2HCT 66
2E Retinue Billmen Reg C EHI/HI, 2HCT 66
6E Retinue Longbowmen Reg C LMI, LB 82
6E Retinue Longbowmen Reg C LMI, LB 82
4E Household Longbowmen Reg B, LHI, LB 106
10E Unemplaced Stakes for LB 20
Sub-total 1,006

Lancastrian Forces
2E Shire Levy Billmen Reg D MI, 2HCT 34*
6E Shire Levy Longbowmen Reg D, LMI, LB 58*
6E Shire Levy Longbowmen Reg D, LMI, LB 58*
6E Shire Levy Longbowmen Reg D, LMI, LB 58*
6E Shire Levy Longbowmen Reg D, LMI, LB 58*
6E Northern Border Horse Irr C LC, L 73** 18 SP
6E Northern Border Spearmen Irr C MI, LTS, Sh 97**
8E Irish Bonnachts Irr C LMI, ½ 2HCW, Jls, Sh ½ Jls, Sh 97
6E Irish Kerns Irr C LI, Jls, Sh 61** 3 SP
Sub-total 594

[Frank Gilson]

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

I have to agree about the shields for half the LB units and will adjust accordingly. I haven't tested this army using WARRIOR but it's hard to believe that a small unit of knights (2E) could effectively squeeze between two units of LB behind stakes to strike my billmen. As for Elephants, how would they reach billmen positioned in support of my longbowmen? Also, why are missile factors against elephants worse for LB than for B? Wouldn't the same principles of armor penetration do more damage to an elephants hide rather than less?

[lilroblis]

Good questions - my answer is because thats what the guy who originally wrote these rules thought - the Indians who used long bow did it because it was more effective - and they were the biggest elephant users since year 0 (Carthaginiands dissapeared from the world BC)

[Mark Stone]

In the days of WRG 7th (Warrior's precursor) the rationale regarding LB (and CB) factors against elephants was that the missiles did relatively little damage to the elephants themselves, but had some effect on crew, and that the missiles had more of a distraction / alarm effect on the elephants rather than causing real harm. In both these cases -- effect on crew and psychological effect on elephants -- it was thought that volume of fire mattered more than penetration, and bow has the highest rate of fire.

What the Warrior thinking is I wouldn't speculate, and at some level don't really care. Warrior is what it is.

Other comments: I like the 2HCT guys, and I think they're better off against pike than people give them credit for, but you do have to be careful.

If I'm facing your War of the Roses army, here's how I get to grips with the billmen without taking shooting on the way in: I flank my attacking unit with shooters of my own, so that your shooting priority is my shooters as they are "shooters directly to front and capable of shooting at you." LI S,Sh in skirmish work great for this, as they are highly resistant to shooting and cheap. That eliminates prep shooting. Support shooting I probably just eat it, but it's not that bad. You have to be very close to (or in contact with) your billmen to provide them support shooting, and even then you only get one element's frontage of support shooting on each side and still take the -2 for in contact.

Of course all this is pretty well telegraphed, and you may respond by retiring the billmen, for example. So it becomes a game of maneuver. How much frontage do you cover? How much do I cover? Do you have something against which to anchor your line? Are there places you can afford to yield ground? Are there places I can make you stand and receive? In the end, that's why we roll dice.

[Frank Gilson]

Mark is correct...

You can, as you allude to, have your Billmen as flank supports behind your Longbow...and unless your Longbow end up in hth combat nobody can charge through the gap into your billmen.

But, LMI LB,Sh behind stakes are...not the best in hth combat against any durable foe who can resist their shooting.

Also, if elephants do get a charge off against you the stakes don't count...so in the open you'll waver test uneasy...and likely lose the combat against them.

Still, how often would you face elephants? almost never?

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

Again I'm asking as a novice regarding WARRIOR so please excuse my ignorance. Would there be any advantage to have LB units as detachments of the Billmen in HTH combat? or maneuver? How are detachments different from the rear rank 2HCT of the Swiss lists?

[Mark Stone]

[Ed Kollmer]

"Risk Tolerance"
Interesting ...... Do I have a high "risk tolerance"..???????
Since I am known by many famous people as "Ed the Rash".
Does this mean I have a high "Risk Tolerance".????
How could anyone "the Rash" not have a high "Risk Tolerance"?
The armies I play are not considered "Killer Armies" or Tier 1.
Does that mean I have high "Risk Tolerance".
Who should I consult about this???
Frank, Scott, BillL, Mark,.........?

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

So, back to detachments. Are there interpenetration or exchanging of ranks tactics allowed to parent/detachment units or than Swiss, that work well on the WARRIOR battlefield?

[Frank Gilson]

If it isn't written in the list or in the rules...then no...and a combined parent/detachment body does not get special rank switching or deployment.

Now...you can do the following:
Wide longbow unit is in front of its parent and is much wider than the parent.

Parent walks up, contacts the LB detachment and absorbs them.

Parent is placed somewhere in the frontage previously occupied by the LB unit as wide as it can be made. LB make up rear rank(s).

That could save your LB bacon at some point...but check the fully updated Detachment rules.