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Rajput, Lodi or Delhi?
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Rajput, Lodi or Delhi?

Ok - putting out a thoughtful question to take a look at some lists.

Rajput, Lodi and Delhi have all been played in the past few years (I've faced all 3). I guess I'd love to see a possible lists from the sources here on the Forum. I'll put myself through the exercise as well and see what I can come up with.

I know Woyke ran Lodi recently and I also faced Jevon with Rajput so it would be nice to hear from either of them as well.

Here is Dan's NICT list to start.

Dan Woyke's Lodi Dynasty Indians

2 **Irr B EL JLS,2B 1HG/PA 133 54 93.5 187 0 187
3 *Irr B EL JLS,2B 1HG/P 73 54 63.5 190.5 0 190.5
3 Irr B EL JLS,2B 1HG 54 54 54 162 25 187
564.5
2 Irr B HC L,B,Sh * 33 33 66 25 91
4 Irr C MC L,B,Sh 21 21 84 25 109
200
4 Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B * 16 10 13 52 25 77
4 Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B * 16 10 13 52 25 77
154
4 Irr B LMI JLS,SH 12 12 48 25 73
6 Irr C MI LTS,JLS,SH 16 16 96 25 121
8 Irr C LI B SH/B 6 4 5 40 25 65
259
Rajput
2 *Irr A EHC/HC L,B,Sh * 108 36 72 144 144
2 Irr A EHC/HC L,B,Sh * 42 36 39 78 25 103
2 Irr A EHC/HC L,B,Sh * 42 36 39 78 25 103
350
6 Irr D LI B 2 2 12 25 37
6 Irr D LI B 2 2 12 25 37
74
Scouting: 46
* Elephant Proof 1601.5

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Have looked

Don't forget Kingdom of Vijayanagara...which has some unique options to offer.

General Problems:
Various troops end up being expensive, limiting your frontage if you go that way...unless you take the cheap troops, who are terrible (Irr D/C MI/LMI) and won't fill space for long against a skilled opponent...

The Elephants don't have pike...so some thought to putting LI on the base of 2El units with bow crew and just trying to make something happen with the shooting should be done...but still not a substitute for Pike.

Detachments are another way to go involving the Elephants...so playing that game should be a consideration (foot detachment is up front, doesn't move, and Elephant parent walks up, contacts, and absorbs...suddenly your opponent is facing Elephants, not LI or LMI).

On another PC I have some lists I can dig up...will try to post them later.

Frank
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Regarding the Lodi list:

Irr B elephants are always useful, and this is a decent amount of LC and LI to provide scouting and frontage coverage.

My question is what the loose order cavalry accomplishes. MC with L,B,Sh is very brittle, especially Irr C. More importantly: Irr A EHC are very expensive; what do they beat that's actually of interest? You don't really want to risk them against pike, or really even against LTS. You don't want to risk them against SHK. They are overkill against HC or LC or LI (Irr B would arguably be better in this case). You really can't use them against light troops anyway because of the mandatory charge, mandatory impetuous, and thus mandatory rally forward. I guess they have some value against irregular loose order foot, but irregular loose order foot are not a particularly difficult troop type to beat.

I'll have to dig out the various lists and give this some thought (again). I'm not as dismissive as Frank about elephants without pike, especially if they're Irreg B. I think there is some gold amongst these lists, but I suspect it has more to do with creative options for foot troops than the cavalry.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject:

Rajput : my problem here is the general high cost of the good troops...leaving you with relatively few units/frontage...and Irr A LMI JLS,Sh isn't much of a front line troop. Only 6 Elephants and no generals on Elephants and I'd say...never run this.

These Later Indian lists have to compare themselves to Seleucid and Ghaznavid...Seleucid has 8 elephants and solid supporting troops, if primarily C class.

Ghaznavid has B class Elephants with Pike...and solid support troops.

Hard to say any Indian list is better than those two choices...other than "doing something different".

Also, these lists are rife with the kinds of inefficiencies that render already strained lists difficult to play (mandatory Irr D LMI JLS,Sh, Irr D LC JLS,Sh, required close foot, etc.)
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject:

Ok, even though there is no sane reason to run one of these armies over, say, Ghaznavid or Seleucid...Wink...I present a list version far far superior to Woyke's take on Sultanate/Lodi...believe me.

CinC PA B on Irr B El B/B
with Irr B El B/B/B 175
Sub similar 115
2 units of 2 Irr B El B/B/B 242
(only 8 total Elephants is about 2 too short...no viable LI on the base (they are Irr C and few in number) is a problem)
2E Irr C MC L,B,Sh (El proof) 73
2E Irr B EHC L,B,Sh (El proof) 103
2 units of 6E Irr C LC B (El proof) 170
2E Irr B Afghan HC L,B,Sh (El proof) 91
8E Irr B Afghan LI B,Sh/B 81 (normally you'd not make them Irr B, but you can, and it makes a big difference)
9E Irr B Afghan LMI JLS,Sh 133
(Afghans are dubious, but good morale)
That's 11 units on 1183 points...the Rajputs are a foolish distraction. So...we'll take some Afghan HC and some Hindu infantry.
4 units of 8E Irr D LI B 164 (Hindus)
9E Irr D MI LTS,Sh 97 (Hindus)
up to 1444 and 16 units, 156 points left

2E Irr B HC L,B,Sh (NOT elephant proof) Afghans 85 (elephants can't be everywhere, these guys 'stiffen' a LI unit somewhere)
17 units, 71 points left
2 3 crew Reg C Hvy Bolt Shooters (don't reasonably have anything else to buy)
18 units, 1599 points, 64 scouting

Would I play this? Well, no, I'd just play Ghaznavid.

Frank
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Dan Woyke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: I don't Believe you FRANK :)

Where to Begin!....

First I do like Franks list.....but it is very Frank (covered in a lot of FRANK)

The Indian lists I think are fun and might need some slight tweeking in the long run. I mean Lodi has some major flaws and I am fine with that! I looked at the list and said I am going to shorten the board and a roll forward! Yes, everyone run’s to Ghazanvid as a better list, but I see more flaws in how I run an army in Ghazanvid then Lodi. (Clearly Heir Frank thinks different…but each person their own)

To Quote Mark from the NICT list review “On the up side, this version is configured to pretty much guarantee a lot of high scoring games. In our scoring system that's probably a good thing.”

Exactly my thought pattern Mark, when I was building the list and thinking on how Warrior has evolved and how I need to score points. I have played around with other lists. I know I could get points with this list. 1-1 doesn’t work for me!

Dan


Last edited by Dan Woyke on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Dan is normally a putz but I liked his post anyway

Please note the subject line in Dan's reply. Great stuff!

Dan makes a point that Frank either overlooks or ignores: playing style of the player. Find a list, even if it's not UBER LIST UBER ALLES!!!!!!!!! that fits your style and work on making it work.

scott

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Dan Woyke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Holder is a Cranky old Coot (just seeing if this works)

Scott,

Frank strips down the list to the pure numbers value, which I think is invaluable, so it is a totally different analysis.

Mark and Todd, I think have really interesting takes on list building. (Looking at both of you for a reply)

But you are right on trying to find a list that molds to how you play!

I think finding both a numbers list and Flow list (let’s call it that) is the hard thing, but achievable.

If we base it on flow…I think you would have wide value of list being played because each person is that different!

I don’t think there is any right format…just the right format for me, also I like the challenge!
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject:

This reminds me of two things:
1) DanW thought about having a game day were guys would bring their armies and play a round than they would switch to the other opponents armies and play that list(army) and each round they switched.
A very interesting game day.
2) I remember back in 6th or 7th edition (somewhere around there). They did something like this. I remember I got Bob Hess's lowlands army , first time I played organ guns.

Does anyone want any more useless info. I have more. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
EK
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Dan is normally a putz but I liked his post anyway

scott holder wrote:
Please note the subject line in Dan's reply. Great stuff!

Dan makes a point that Frank either overlooks or ignores: playing style of the player. Find a list, even if it's not UBER LIST UBER ALLES!!!!!!!!! that fits your style and work on making it work.

scott


Scott has either overlooked or ignored the fact that in this specific case, Ghaznavid is an 'uber' version of all these Indian lists...just generally better, with similar troops in each of the categories...the only 'downer' being that the cav on Ghaz cannot be elephant proof, so does not interoperate well.

The Indian lists would be a little better if they had more LI escorts of higher morale...so the option to take them on El bases could be used...something Ghaznavid simply cannot do.

We're a little bit in the realm of Seleucid/AlexImp vs. all other pike/El armies of that period...those two lists are the top two, with little to no reason (army 'style' particularly included) to run anything else.

Oh, unless...somebody was to want to take 'History' into account Wink...which I suppose is something Scott is also taking into consideration.

Frank "Numbers" Gilson
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Dan Woyke
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject: Frank ate all the Elephants AGAIN!!!

Frank, Mark, Todd.....and Holder

Interested in your thoughts?

Ghaznavid is an 'uber' version of all these Indian lists....not sure that this is true!...but lets go with that you are right!


SideNote JUMP: I think Holder is stating: playing style of the player can influence lists..clearly there are better lists then others (We could list them)...but that does not mean those list will always win (they may be favored), I feel a person who has a good list that works with there style will win out in general. Personally I like taking other lists and seeing if I can win. I do get a little credit for that style system(flow system) with Moldavians, seeing that I was playing for fun and fit and it turned out to be a strong warrior list.

JUMPING BACK TO THE INDIAN lists

1: I am not sure that the Indians lists are the best Elephants in Oriental Warrior.
But I do think they are strong....here are the lists (see below), we basically need to think how we are going to attack (which is how we build our list)

1: Early Indian
2: Mountain Indian
3: Rajput
4: Delhi/Lodi Indian
5: Vijayanagara Indian
6: Bahami Indian


Basic thinking points: do I want to shoot or do I want to attack or both!
(example with Lodi: I went with the idea that I was going to ram forward and attack so i looked for High Moral and strong shock troops...with some support)

Question 1: Do we only take Irrg B EL or is C ok, because of Cost or do we mix it up (with Subs)
Question 2: How many Elephants 4 or 8 or 10....or I LOVE THE GREY BEASTS (part of me thinks that trying to take the Max, when it is over 11-12 El is not cost effective)
Question 3: Do we prefer B or JLS armed crew or mix (not enough of either)..(using the Franky "numbers" Gilson system) seeing no one gets P....Is there an argument for having more Bow over Jav
Question 4: EL proofing Cav?
Question 5: Scouting points (depending how you play....personally I am all about shorting the field of play and attacking.....hence having higher Scouting points)
Question 6: LMI or MI...for support troops! (it seems a lot of the Indian Support troops start as D and are Irrg)

This way we can start looking at the Indian list and crossing off lists that don't meet our strategy. Lodi is an attack list...while I think early Indian might be a shooting list (could be wrong)

Dan
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:37 am    Post subject:

Just looking over this message.
My thoughts went to Khmer... El with (how many bowmen??)
I know that DanW would not like them since what I remember they have no real shock troops. I don't have the list but how many El do they get now.??
EK
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject:

I'll pull out Oriental Warrior at some point and put together some example lists. A few quick comments in response.
* Frank is right regarding Ghaznavid vs. the various Indian lists: exactly the same playing style, just better.
* Elephants should always be Irr B if possible. That way you're doubling your chances of passing those crucial waver or halt waver tests.
* LMI is better than MI. Faster, gives you terrain options, and hard to threaten with cav when accompanied by elephants.
* From any list in any book, if you're going to play more than zero elephants but less than six, then you should be playing Ming Chinese.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject:

Here's a sample Ming Chinese list.

It has some inefficiencies. The Burmese cavalry is worse than useless. Also, I'm not a fan of Reg C heavy cav. And the Ming spearmen aren't very useful.

But...

The firelance EHC are some of the best cavalry in the game. The Burmese elephants are some of the best elephants in the game. The Reg B LHI 2HCT guys are excellent in tandem with the elephants. And there are enough light and skirmishing troops here to easily cover frontage. Not a lot in the way of terrain troops here (you need your LHI with the elephants), but you can confidently refuse a terrain-heavy flank by cashing in some LI on a ditched palisade, putting it opposite the terrain, and parking your LTS guys behind it.

Basically the skirmisher screen rolls forward to pin down your opponent, and you look for weak spots to push forward with either the EHC or the elephants. Most likely you're pushing forward with the elephants and holding the EHC in reserve to counter-punch somewhere.
Unit Troop Type Elems
Ming
1 CinC w/Reg A EHC L,B,Sh,FL 1 stand
Ming Guard Reg B EHC L,B,FL 1 stand

2 Sub w/Reg A EHC L,B,Sh,FL 1 stand
Ming Guard Reg B EHC L,B,FL 1 stand

3 Ming Cavalry Reg C HC L,B,FL 2 stands

4 Ming Light Cav Reg C LC B 4 stands

5 Ming Light Cav Reg C LC B 2 stands

6 Ming Grdsm Rg B LHI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT 4 stands

7 Ming Grdsm Rg B LHI 2HCT,Sh/2HCT 4 stands

8 Ming Spear Reg D MI LTS,Sh 4 stands
Ming Spear Reg D MI LTS 4 stands

9 Ming Spear Reg D MI LTS,Sh 2 stands
Ming Spear Reg D MI LTS 2 stands

10 Ming Bowmen Reg D LMI B,Sh/B 4 stands

11 Ming Bowmen Reg D LMI B,Sh/B 4 stands

12 Ming Bowmen Reg D LI B,Sh/B 6 stands

13 Ming Bowmen Reg D LI B,Sh/B 6 stands

14 Ming Bowmen Reg D LI B 2 stands

15 Sub w/Irr B El 3 w/JLS,B 3 w/B 1 stand
Burm El w/Irr C 3 w/JLS,B 3 w/B 1 stand

16 Burm El w/Irr C 3 w/JLS,B 3 w/B 3 stands

17 Burm Cav Irr D MC/LC JLS 2 stands

18 Burm Archers Irr D LI B,Sh/B 6 stands

19 Burm Archers Irr D LI B,Sh/B 6 stands

Points 1,598

Units 19
Scouting 41
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Frank ate all the Elephants AGAIN!!!

Dan Woyke wrote:
Frank, Mark, Todd.....and Holder

Interested in your thoughts?


1: Early Indian
2: Mountain Indian
3: Rajput
4: Delhi/Lodi Indian
5: Vijayanagara Indian
6: Bahami Indian


Early Indian gets a lot of elephants. Running 15 elephants would be reasonable on this list. But the support troops are utter crap. Probably not worth it.

Mountain Indian only gets 5 elephants. And you're reliant on irreg LMI LTS,JLS,Sh to do the bulk of the work. Not a viable choice.

Rajputs. I really like the elephant escorts here. They are a unique troop type within Warrior, and can be very effective as anti-elephant troops. With 6 elephants of your own, and a good counter to enemy elephants, this is a fairly strong list. The other foot can at least be dangerous if upgraded to C with some selective upgrades to Irr A. There's plenty of LC, and decent support troop EHC and HC, any of which can be elephant proof. So not a bad list at all.

Sultanate. Been discussed here at length. Can get up to 8 elephants, and has a wide variety of support troop types. Not a terrible list, but nothing really to commend it over other choices.

Vijayanagara Indian. Can get up to 10 elephants, and I like the crew (JLS,B). Crucially the Hindu foot start as C class and can be upgraded to regular, transforming them from brittle to useful. Also, some can be up-armored to LHI, which is also useful. 6 stands of required Irr D LMI JLS,Sh which is unfortunate, but stick them in terrain somewhere and make your opponent dig them out.

Bahmani. Only 5 elephants, and nothing to commend it over other lists here.

Of all of these I'd probably run Vijayanagara Indian. I'll do a separate post with a sample list as soon as I get some time.
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