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Later Ottoman Challenge
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Later Ottoman Challenge

Warrior brethren,

With the newly revised Later Ottoman list in Holy Warrior I would love to see all the different list ideas for 1600 that you could come up with - so think of it as a list challenge. I'll come up with my own in the next few days and post here as well.

The list offers a lot of different ways to be run with good cavalry, shooting, fighting, lights, etc.... I see this list being tried out in the NICT for years to come but this would be a good brain exercise for our small group to come up with some ideas.

Todd K

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject:

Later Ottoman Turk

Unit 1:
1 elem CinC w/Reg A EHC L,B,Sh
1 elem Qapu Khalqi Reg B HC L,B,Sh

Unit 2:
2 elems Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 3:
1 elem Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 4:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 5:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 6:
6 elems Turkoman Irr D LC B

Unit 7:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 8:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 9:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 10:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 11:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 12:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 13:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 14:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 15:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 16:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 17:
6 elems Azab Slingers Irr D LI S,Sh

TOTAL 1,599
Scouting 86
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject:

Mark Stone wrote:
Later Ottoman Turk

Unit 1:
1 elem CinC w/Reg A EHC L,B,Sh
1 elem Qapu Khalqi Reg B HC L,B,Sh

Unit 2:
2 elems Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 3:
1 elem Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 4:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 5:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 6:
6 elems Turkoman Irr D LC B

Unit 7:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 8:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 9:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 10:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 11:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 12:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 13:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 14:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 15:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 16:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 17:
6 elems Azab Slingers Irr D LI S,Sh

TOTAL 1,599
Scouting 86


Lots of LC and LI and scouting points...looking to pick table side, deploy after the opponent, and slam the Solak Guards home.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: My Ottoman Turks

CinC PA 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh 201
Sub similar 131
7E Irr D(1 C) MC B 91
2x6E Irr D(1 C) LC B 126
2x6E Irr D LI B 74
6x4E Reg B LMI LTS,B,Sh/LTS,B 588
2x4E Reg B LHI/LMI 2HCT,HG,Sh/JLS,CB
w/ 2 stakes 252
4E Reg B LMI LTS,B,Sh/LTS,B 98
2 6E segments of Ditch 30 = 1591
53 scouting

This version is looking to place Ditch and use terrain to cut the table frontage down in order to concentrate Janissary fire, including HG, at weak points in the enemy army...after disorder/shake the Janissaries themselves then go in, skirmishing occurs elsewhere.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Later Ottoman

CinC EHC/HC, L, B, Sh 201
Sub EHC/HC , L,B,sh 141
Sifani - Irrb/D L,B, 1/2 Sh (4 elements) - 109
Sifani - Irrb/D L,B, 1/2 Sh (4 elements) - 109
Akinji - LCl, B,1/2 sh 1 el Irr C, IR D (7 ele) - 83 points
Akinji - LCl, B,1/2 sh 1 el Irr C, IR D (7 ele) - 83 Points
Turkomans Irr D LC B) 8 El - 73 points
Tartars Reg C LC, jls,B 1/2 Sh - 46 points
Tartars Reg C LC, jls,B 1/2 Sh - 46 points
Tartars Reg C LC, jls,B 1/2 Sh - 46 points
Jannisaries - 1/2 LHI HG, LTs, sh 1/2 B, LTS, Sh Reg B - 114
Jannisaries - 1/2 LHI HG, LTs, sh 1/2 B, LTS, Sh Reg B - 114
Jannisaries - 1/2 LHI HG, LTs, sh 1/2 B, LTS, Sh Reg B - 114
Jannisaries - 1/2 LHI HG, LTs, sh 1/2 B, LTS, Sh Reg B - 114
Ottoman LMI B, 1/2 sh - Reg C/D 54
Ottoman LMi B 1/2 sh - Rg C/D 54
Irr D li B 49
Ottoman LMI, jls, sh 62
1602 points I think - 102 scouting - would give most people fits
Mesos eat it alive - so schwerpunkt and failoed waver tests or its a very long day
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject:

Frank Gilson wrote:
Mark Stone wrote:
Later Ottoman Turk

Unit 1:
1 elem CinC w/Reg A EHC L,B,Sh
1 elem Qapu Khalqi Reg B HC L,B,Sh

Unit 2:
2 elems Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 3:
1 elem Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 4:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 5:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 6:
6 elems Turkoman Irr D LC B

Unit 7:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 8:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 9:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 10:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 11:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 12:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 13:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 14:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 15:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 16:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 17:
6 elems Azab Slingers Irr D LI S,Sh

TOTAL 1,599
Scouting 86


Lots of LC and LI and scouting points...looking to pick table side, deploy after the opponent, and slam the Solak Guards home.


Not exactly. With only one general, the majority of the time you'll be deploying the Solaks before your opponent has deployed their key command(s).

This is 160 4-to-a-stand shooters, along with other 117 other shooters. Thus it is primarily a shooting army (as Ottoman Turks historically should be), with Janissaries and Solaks looking to mop up anything disrupted by shooting. The Janissaries can skirmish away from any threats that survive shooting, and the Solaks just don't fear much of anything.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject:

Mark Stone wrote:
Frank Gilson wrote:
Mark Stone wrote:
Later Ottoman Turk

Unit 1:
1 elem CinC w/Reg A EHC L,B,Sh
1 elem Qapu Khalqi Reg B HC L,B,Sh

Unit 2:
2 elems Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
2 elems Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 3:
1 elem Sipahis Irr C MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC L,B
1 elem Sipahis Irr D MC B

Unit 4:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 5:
6 elems Akinji Irr C LC L,B,Sh/L,B

Unit 6:
6 elems Turkoman Irr D LC B

Unit 7:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 8:
2 elems Crimean Tartar Reg C LC JLS,B

Unit 9:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 10:
4 elems Solak Guards Reg A HI 2HCT/2HCW,B,Sh

Unit 11:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 12:
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LHI 2HCT,HG,Sh
2 elems Janissaries Reg B LMI 2HCT,B

Unit 13:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 14:
12 elems Subject Infantry Irr D MI B,Sh/B

Unit 15:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 16:
6 elems Azab Archers Irr D LI B

Unit 17:
6 elems Azab Slingers Irr D LI S,Sh

TOTAL 1,599
Scouting 86


Lots of LC and LI and scouting points...looking to pick table side, deploy after the opponent, and slam the Solak Guards home.


Not exactly. With only one general, the majority of the time you'll be deploying the Solaks before your opponent has deployed their key command(s).

This is 160 4-to-a-stand shooters, along with other 117 other shooters. Thus it is primarily a shooting army (as Ottoman Turks historically should be), with Janissaries and Solaks looking to mop up anything disrupted by shooting. The Janissaries can skirmish away from any threats that survive shooting, and the Solaks just don't fear much of anything.


Ahh, yes, only one general...your version doesn't look super Woods friendly.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Frank Gilson wrote:


Ahh, yes, only one general...your version doesn't look super Woods friendly.


I think y'all obsess too much about woods. This is a reactive army, but covers enough frontage that flanks are not a concern. If there's a woods on the Ottoman side of the table, it's easy enough to put a ditch in front of it and back it with, say the LI S,Sh guys. It will now take the opponent approximately forever to move through the woods, clear the LI off the ditch, cross the ditch, and do anything meaningful.

A key brush can certainly be contested by the Janisarries and lancers.

So, as a counter-punching army this one can do enough with terrain not to worry about it.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Later Ottoman

So I see two units of MI, b 1/2 sh - I used to love these - they are space hogs - but since none of my armies allow them - can you rationalize them, and I believe you could get stakes for them - thoughts?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Later Ottoman

lilroblis wrote:
So I see two units of MI, b 1/2 sh - I used to love these - they are space hogs - but since none of my armies allow them - can you rationalize them, and I believe you could get stakes for them - thoughts?


Derek, whenever the list permits, uses 12E MI B, often without shields.

Who wants to devote the troops necessary to defeat these? Also, at their ends you have units ready to attack the flanks of whomever does try to kill them.

Killing them, even were you successful, takes forever and rewards you with...not many points, as any rout is easily predicted, and low morale friendlies pulled away.

They also do put out a lot of shooting, so there are simply things you can't put in front of them.

No, you can't put them right up on the front line and push them into the enemy army...that's not what they are for.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject: Later Ottoman

So one of the few games I won well - and mostly by luck (bad on Dereks side) - was against these units and was on my way to rout them - with shields they are much tougher - and yes they are cheap - 97 points a unit - but they are a target - when sometimes nothing else is - ZI hear the call, just struggle to find places for them in most of my armies
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Later Ottoman

lilroblis wrote:
So I see two units of MI, b 1/2 sh - I used to love these - they are space hogs - but since none of my armies allow them - can you rationalize them, and I believe you could get stakes for them - thoughts?


I use these units frequently in both the shieldless (Shang Chinese) and shielded (10 Independent States) variety.

They are disproportionately hard to kill, and really nothing routs them at contact (at least nothing an opponent is willing to commit to the effort). The greatest value I've gotten from them is by putting them on the flanks against enemy light cavalry. In this context they become a cheap way to turn an opponent's supposed advantage into a disadvantage. LC can't close with such a unit, and even at long range are frequently shot back for 2 or more CPF. If you pair these big bow units up with some faster shooters -- here I would likely use the MC -- your opponent can find himself quickly taking waver tests he didn't expect to be taking: Bound N your opponent takes 3 CPF from a big MI bow unit, recalling out of their shooting range next bound. Bound N+1 a faster but less dense shooting unit approaches the rallying LC and does 2 CPF to them. Instant waver test (test or recall, and unable to recall because haven't finished rallying).

Also, these units are deceptively maneuverable. The ability to face 90 degrees, wheel 40 paces, and then next bound advance 40 and expand by 2 means that they can redeploy with surprising speed once the threat in front of them has been shot away.

All in all useful guys, and on the Ottoman list they help channel the fight into the center of the table where the Solaks await.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Later Ottoman

Mark Stone wrote:
lilroblis wrote:
So I see two units of MI, b 1/2 sh - I used to love these - they are space hogs - but since none of my armies allow them - can you rationalize them, and I believe you could get stakes for them - thoughts?


I use these units frequently in both the shieldless (Shang Chinese) and shielded (10 Independent States) variety.

They are disproportionately hard to kill, and really nothing routs them at contact (at least nothing an opponent is willing to commit to the effort). The greatest value I've gotten from them is by putting them on the flanks against enemy light cavalry. In this context they become a cheap way to turn an opponent's supposed advantage into a disadvantage. LC can't close with such a unit, and even at long range are frequently shot back for 2 or more CPF. If you pair these big bow units up with some faster shooters -- here I would likely use the MC -- your opponent can find himself quickly taking waver tests he didn't expect to be taking: Bound N your opponent takes 3 CPF from a big MI bow unit, recalling out of their shooting range next bound. Bound N+1 a faster but less dense shooting unit approaches the rallying LC and does 2 CPF to them. Instant waver test (test or recall, and unable to recall because haven't finished rallying).

Also, these units are deceptively maneuverable. The ability to face 90 degrees, wheel 40 paces, and then next bound advance 40 and expand by 2 means that they can redeploy with surprising speed once the threat in front of them has been shot away.

All in all useful guys, and on the Ottoman list they help channel the fight into the center of the table where the Solaks await.


Perhaps we'll see you running the list that way...hmmm
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Later Ottoman

Maybe a thought for my seluicids - who are almost always out cavalried - I appreciate the thought - maybe something to try again - as I look at different lists
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Later Ottoman

Frank Gilson wrote:

Perhaps we'll see you running the list that way...hmmm


I can assure you that I will not be running Ottoman Turks in the foreseeable future. But I know someone with no prior history with this list who might.
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